Absolutely not. intolerance has nothing to do with religion. More 1.5 billion Muslims around the world would never murder another soul just because of difference in ideology. Throughout the years, homosexuals have been under attack by Christians and other religions alike, you cannot blame a whole religion and its people for the acts of a few
Dude - this is 2016! gays exist, lesbians exist! the terrorist's name is OMAR, like every other terrorist in the last 20 years named Mohammad or Ahmad or whatever the fu*k! Once Trump takes over the White House, you bet your ass not a single terrorist attack will take place on our soil. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
Rhetoric causes attacks bull shit. No people who kill people cause attacks
@yaz - I don't think the religion is being put on trial due to the acts of the few. In fact, as I wrote above, I don't believe that all Muslims are evil.That doesn't take away from the fact that it has become increasingly clear that most of the terrorist attacks around the world are being carried out by radical Muslims. In fact, ISIS leadership called for an increase in attacks in "the homeland of the infidel" during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. If that doesn't look bad and generate an exaggerated response from the international community, I don't know what will...
I don't think that "Islam" is to blame, but I mean come on, when was the last time you heard of a terrorist attack that did NOT include Muslims? (maybe one or two the past year?) I am completely against blaming a whole religion for the acts of a few, but it's starting to get really difficult to distinguish between peaceful and terrorist Muslims
EXACTLY! it's time to call a spade a spade
I can think of over 300+ acts of domestic terrorism perpetrated by non-Muslims just last year: they're called mass shootings. The man behind the Planned Parent hood shooting in Ohio was a Christian religious zealot, but are we blaming Christianity? No.
unbelievable. yet another thread discussing Islam in this sad time we live in. classic. STOP THE HATE!
I don't think any of us are hating on Islam, necessarily. Certainly there are those out there who do, and that makes discussing Islam and its influences all the more important in the aftermath of yet another shooting done in the name of Islam.
This isn't a sad time of hatred against any one religion or group. When a individual commits a heinous terrorist act in the name of a religion and religious group, it is certainly going to be discussed how that groups vision or teachings could have played a factor in the causation of the act.
It's ridiculous to think otherwise. The maniac's father (who is also a maniac) said that it had nothing to do with religion, because his son was just angry when he saw two gay men kissing each other in front of his son.Hmm.
I think the key word here is radicalization, rather than Islam.
Well, to call the source of radicalization "Islam", is what's incorrect. It's radicalization but it doesn't stem from true Islam. Just because he claims the shooting is in the name of Islam, doesn't make it actually related to Islam
This is the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.If homophobia has nothing to do with Islam, why is it that in Muslim majority countries, being homosexual is illegal?
Radical what though? Islam right?
That's true. What if it was done in the name of Bob?
I would disagree, there are definitely elements of Islam from which radicalization has sprung. Jihad, for example.
I am sorry but you're wrong. If you've studied history you will see the similarities this Islamic teaching have with 7th century Islam. It's not that it's radicalized or not, it's that it's an older teaching of Islam being taught again.
this was nothing but a hate crime against gay people. The father even said he wasn't a practicing muslim.
Mmmmhm. Have you ever looked into the father?
His father was well known to also have fairly radical views. In an MSN article published today, they make reference to the fact that, "Mateen’s father Seddique Mir Mateen did appear to have extreme views, however. In videos on his YouTube channel he has previously https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the-orlando-shooters-afghan-roots/2016/06/13/d89a8cd0-30e4-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html" target="_blank" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: rgb(18, 109, 145); font-family: "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 18px; line-height: 25.992px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">paid tribute to the Afghan Taliban."
A hate crime against gay people be part of Islamic radicalization. Look how ISIS throws them off buildings
religion turns people into assholes. Stop sharpening the knife that will slit your throat.
True; religion combined with bad people gives you what we face today.
considering theyve already claimed responsibility and the 911 tapes have been heard you've got to be a fucking idiot to disagree with this. the fact more disagree is very scary. to think the majority in this country are sympathetic toward their enemies is absolutely terrifying.
what about that other guys that WASN'T MUSLIM that was going to attack LA?This isn't about Islam. Stop changing the conversation.This is about homophobia and transphobia. What the fuck is wrong withy you.
exactly! just because he says "Islam", doesn't actually make it about Islam! I can go kill someone right now and say it's because Jesus told me to do it in my sleep, does that make my crime Christian? absolutely not!
I think that you have a very narrow view of the world. This isn't just about hatred towards the LGBTQ community. In fact, the terrorist was known for speaking out about his hatred towards Blacks and Jews as well. We + the media are making this into an anti-gay situation, when in reality it is a far larger issue, one of terrorism that is sweeping us worldwide.
Organized religion is to blame for most of the world's troubles. And bad guys. Bad guys will cite any cause or issue to justify their actions.How's that?
thank u sir. wise word! it's not about ISLAM, it's about religion being used and abused to achieve political agendas (i.e. organized religion!)
Correct! It's not about Islam. It just so happens to be, though, that Islam is the religion in question here, with the terrorists being linked to that religion. Which kinda makes it in a way about Islam."Religion being used and abused to achieve political agendas" - Replace the more broad word of "religion", with the word "Islam". And that is exactly the point. That not all Muslims are terrorists, and not all of Islam is radical. But, there are those that are. And that notion of the few (no matter how small of a number) being radial, will always be a stain on the otherwise peaceful religion and people. (Again, we're only speaking in facts here. No emotional arguments)
Homophobia, anger, and a lack of serious gun regulation are to blame for the Orlando shooting. There are arguments to be made about organized religion or even specifically radical Islam, but ISIS =/= Islam. ISIS is a terrorist organization that spreads fear due to a hatred for an ideology (Western culture) which they do not understand.Don't become them. Understand that which you hate, don't perpetuate violent rhetoric. ISIS is not an Islamic organization--it is nothing more than a group of people who weaponize their hate.
I think ISIS would disagree with your opinion. They are an Islamic group, albeit a super radical one. They are just like every Muslim in their faith and ideologies, teachings, and holy books.I do agree that other motives may have a place in this terrible tragedy, but at the end of the day, it is a case of Islamic radicalization.
Are you aware that most ISIS militants are not well versed in the Quran or Hadith or Islamic theology at all? They go with whatever they're told by the few top ISIS leaders in order to go about committing criminal acts that they were already convicted of committing before joining ISIS.
I don't think that unawareness or ignorance should be a proper excuse.
It's not a matter of ignorance, rather a matter of ISIS militants ignoring the core teachings of Islam. No religion is perfect, but I think this kind of rhetoric is very damaging to Muslim people who practice their religion normally and peacefully.
The same way anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, anti-Atheist, anti-Catholic, or any other sort of anti-rhetoric on any other religion is damaging. You can't pardon the people (or the religion) for the sins, or missteps of those who rather openly state that they ARE the religion.Yes, it is damaging to those who practice peacefully, and don't want violence. But that's a separate point. There are no "feelings" when it comes to placing blame. If a radical Jew, or radical Christian, etc, were to carry out an attack, it would be a mark on the whole religion and the whole people. It just so happens to be, though, that it seems that Islam, its people, and its teachings are more prone, or more apt to violence. That's not an emotional opinion. That's a fact.(Also, please see my other arguments and points throughout the length of this post which also contain answers to this).
I think people are jumping the gun and seeing the word Islam and not radicalized Islam. Islam, like many religions goes through its good times and it's bad times, this isn't 9th of 17th century Islamic people we are dealing with, yes most of Islam is peaceful, but there is a portion of Islam that is routing back to its 7th century ways. It frightens me the lack of knowledge on this page, speaking with knowing little about history what so ever. People need to stop reading opinion based articles both left and right, and start need to formulating their own actual fact based opinions. How can one say this isn't radical Islam? Of course it is, it's a fact. That being said, more than 95 percent of Islam is NOT radical.
calling it radical Islam, even if it is 5%, implies that Islam has something to do with it, even if it is affecting just 5%. Islam has nothing to do with it. Someone misinterpreted the notion of Islam and associated his action with Islam, but it doesn't make it Islam. It's certainly radicalization, but it's not Islamic radicalization,
I think you're miss understanding what Joe has to say. He pointed out that you're jumping at words with out reading the full argument. Obama doesn't mention radical Islam, not because he doesn't believe Islam isn't the reason why; but because he knows how xenophobic the American culture can be, so he avoids saying it. But in saying that, it doesn't make it less true. Radical Islam is a thing, and it is derived from Islam. History proves that to be fact, to argue against that is blatant ignorance. I am sorry, I don't mean to call you out for being ignorant Yaz, but it really is being ignorant. The leaders of radical Islam probably are not very religious, they are probably just power hungry. But make no mistake, they are using 7th Century teachings of Islam to empower their army. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact that has no room for debate.
5% of Islam. Laughable. Look up the actual numbers.
You misspelled "homophobia and toxic masculinity."
who are you referring to?
I think the joke is that homophobia and toxic masculinity are to blame for the massacre, not Islamic radicalization. While I believe that there were many causes of the shooting, I agree that Islam was not a main one.
...@Leah But do you agree that it was one? I mean he did pledge allegiance over and over to ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Bagdadi, and the tenants of modern day radical Islam
And he also pledged allegiance to groups that actively hate ISIS, such as Hezbollah. This wasn't a terrorist, this was a toxic wife-beating piece of shit who wanted attention and validation and was willing to throw in with anyone who he thought could give it to him. Pledging to both ISIS and Hezbollah would be like wanting to join the Neo-Nazis while studying to become a Rabbi. Or to put it in science fiction terms, that would be proclaiming to be both a Jedi and a Sith.
When did he pledge allegiance to Hezbollah?? According to CNN (and other news sites who obtained copies of the transcript of Mateen's call to the Police), Mateen said, "My name is I pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of the Islamic State." Later on, in that same article posted by CNN, it was also reported that, "In those calls, which lasted a total of 28 minutes, according to the FBI's timeline, Mateen identified himself as an ISLAMIC SOLDIER."Paul Ryan, in speaking out against the selctive release of the transcripts, was also quoted as saying, "Selectively editing this transcript is preposterous...[we] know the shooter was a radical Islamist extremist inspired by ISIS. We also know he intentionally targeted the LGBT community. The administration should release the full, unredacted transcript so the public is clear-eyed about who did this, and why."That all seems pretty clear to me. Although, I must add that your visual of a Rabbi-Neo Nazi was pretty funny.http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/ - (Link to the CNN article from which I quoted. Also, please note that it is an article from CNN so there will be no screaming of Republican bias within the writing of the piece. It should be all nice and tidy for y'all Democrats).Oh, and as well, this was a terrorist. Maybe he was also a, "toxic wife-beating piece of shit who wanted attention and validation", but he was also a terrorist. That cannot be disputed.
Fantastic article, I actually read it this morning. However, it doesn't actually say that Mateen pledged allegiance to anyone other than ISIS. It does say that he had ties to those other organizations, and may even have said he was a part of them as late as 2013! But we're in 2016. And we're not talking about those comments. We're actually discussing the tragic terror attack which took place in Orlando, during which he pledged allegiance to ISIS and its leadership. That's it.Also, the title of the article states that he may not have understood the difference between them. Not that he didn't pledge allegiance to ISIS and al-Baghdadi, and that he wasn't a terrorist which was your exact point. In fact, even if he was confused and pledged allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah, Al-Nusrah, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad (designated by the DOJ in 1997 as a terrorist group), the PLF, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Boko Haram, FARC, or any other group of TERRORISTS, that would still make him a TERRORIST!
I'm sure the anti-gay Right in America appreciates your contribution to making sure the conversation about homophobia and toxic masculinity doesn't happen.
I think you misspelled, "oh, you're right."
And just so we're clear, take a look at the debate heading. Nowhere in it does it say anything about the anti-gay right in America, nor does it say anything about the LGBTQ movement, or anything about gay rights. In fact, I am pro-gay rights, and fully believe that those in the gay community should be afforded every right, and every other freedom that others are afforded.This conversation, however, is about whether or not Islamic radicalization is to blame for the Orlando massacre. In fact, this entire thread is about that exact point!If you want to talk about the anti-gay right in America, go right ahead. There's a small rectangular box on the QallOut home screen which says "start a debate". Try it out