@benmouse42 enjoyed the debate. The argument that voters vote with imperfect knowledge is correct but that is less the case now as it was even 4 years ago.Just like you attempted to Quote a tweet to show your point voters not living in an info bubble interact with other ppl and argue thier points. Bernies' voting record is not hidden it was used to shut any bernie bro down that was willing to defend him.That is why i think you lost the debate imo. your argument was that muricans are stupid so if bernie lied to them they would not find out..this is not the case: People have figured out how to google shit.
@ordersanda Cheers for the feedback dude! That makes total sense, I'm not sure if my opponent made that argument though. I guess I would have just responded by pointing out that Trump lied to Americans too and it worked so it's unclear why 1) Trump is immune to fact checking but Bernie isn't.2) Or why the voting record can't be sensibly explained3) or why war would would have decided enough peoples votes.Those would have been my responses had he brought it up.
@benmouse42 Most of bernies positions are undermined by his voting history be it war or his economic fixes. He is a career politicians so no surprise. His voting record can not be sensibly explained is the point i stress. The same can not be said of trump as he is not a career politicain simply.Its a case of the 'devil you know being so bad' that the 'devil you dont know' is peferable.
@ordersanda I'm just surprised this didn't show up in the primary debates as much if it was such a big issue.I don't think the presidential race would be centred around the voting record, it would be centred around their platform.Then I guess the logical response is "well how can they trust him" well fortunately we have polling for that. Bernie's trustworthyness numbers were through the roof
@benmouse42 Hillary could not Expose the hypocrisy of bernie's stance as she would smell bad too. Those polls have lost a lot of credulity but regardless they can not be assumed to be reprisentative polls in a bernie vs trump campaign.We can only speculate what the presidential debates would be centered on with bernie running stead of hillary.One thing we can do is to assemble the facts which could be used and bernie is not looking good in that department: this is the aproach Ryan has taken to examine the probablity of the outcome, this is a sensible factual aproach.
@ordersanda Great comment, we're pinning it at the top!
Fact check is in order - where's the Bernie/Hillary map? links please
@derrickthekid Unfortunately, Hillary did win in a land slide, there's no doubt about that.... no map needed
I will never come to terms with the blatant stupidity of the American people, we could have had Bernie... but can you really blame the ignorant idiots with all the DNC and media bullshit? We have to learn the hard way.
I'm a uuuuge Bernie - it was pretty damn obvious that Trump was going to win in the last month of the Election
@rydawson the point here is not if we like Bernie or not but if he would have won against Trump!
@michellewoods The argument that ppl are too stupid to google berniei's voting record is retarded... he would have lost.
Hey @benmouse42 ask him about Bernie's stance about Palestine/Israel compared to Trump
@derrickthekid judging by the ambassador to Israel Trump has picked don't expect to see any criticism of iserals settlement expansion policy. Ry doesn't want to admit that.
This is actually a really good debate.
@ryandawson Cheers for the debate dude! Leave a video comment to finish up if you want to make the time more fair.
@rydawson (wrong tag)
He's a fucking communist. About half of the country instantaneously knows not to vote for that. A wide portion of the latter half probably could've been convinced.
@ericguillermoguzman Bernie never said abolish private commerce I know libertarians don't really no the definitions of anything they say.
@jackson23 I think we *know enough to disown Johnson and remind people that Bernie was a stupid choice.
The strongest case is looking at the map, Bernie lost blue collar workers the same as Hillary only more so.
@rydawson http://www.nytimes.com/elections/2016/national-results-mapThere ya go, as I mentioned, green through all of the rural counties (except the south of course, but the democrats were never going to win those states anyway) the relevant states to look at here are Michigan and Wisconsin, two of the big unexpected flips.
that kind of liberal arrogance that Americans wont look at any details is another reason the liberals lost. Trump had a job plan that people understood. Put America first. Lower taxes and get businesses to stay or return to the US. Bernie wanted to raise taxes and that just makes more buusinesses leave. Bernies plans didn't work in his own state. Bernie's tax plan would land us another 13.6 trillion in the hole http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/267331-analysis-sanders-tax-plan-would-raise-trillions-cost-jobs|Bernie's single payer plan in Vermont failed because http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/25/bernie-sanders-s-single-payer-health-care-plan-failed-in-vermont.html"But the very real peril came in the cost for the program, an estimated $4.3 billion a year, almost the size of the state’s entire $4.9 billion budget. To make up for the $2 billion shortfall, taxes would have to go up, a lot. Businesses would see an 11.5 percent payroll tax increase, on top of whatever they chose to provide for employee health care, while individual income taxes could jump by up to 9 percent. The report recommended against moving forward “due to the economic shock and transition issues,”As I stated your payroll tax is not a dollar six a a week like Bernie claimed. It was up 11.5% in his own state. If you don't address the underlying causes for WHY the price is so high then it doesn't matter how you pay for it. Bernie supported the protectionist regulations.Bernie lost Ohio, Pennsylvania and Illinois To Hillary. He also lost Florida, North Carolina and Virginia too, the States they needed.There is no way he was going to beat Trump. People didn't really like Trump or Hillary but when asked about Bernie Sanders they just said no way. He was losing the South so bad to her he was getting in the 20s and 30% And that was among Democrats. As an Extreme leftist he was not going to win over Republican at all and he was not going to get moderate leftist. He was also not going to get that portion of female votes who just voted Hillary because she has a vagina.
http://time.com/money/4584852/trump-tax-plan-deficit-buster/https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/donald-trumps-economy/481743/Trumps plan also destroys the economy... if people trusted articles like the ones we have linked then no-one would vote.They don't, they trust what makes the most sense in a campaign. And in that campaign it's easier to explain to people that "millionaires and billionaires" and wall street should be taxed then it is to convince people that America tax rate can compete with tax havens without blowing up the debt and deficit.
@benmouse42 Bring jobs back home and MAGA is not hard to get. Robin hood econmic model that bernie proposed is not believable when comming from a dude who bailed out Lockhead Martin ...and yes people know ...this is not the 80's broThe Simple reason bernie would have lost is the same reason hillary lost. they have Voting histories trump does not.
@ordersanda You don't think the establishment/trust-worthyness number or the FBI investigation had anything to do with it?I'd be really surprised if the voting record was more of a problem then the narrative of establishment vs anti-establishment
@benmouse42 the voting record is part of the establishment narrative. the two go hand in hand
@ordersanda Very fair, I guess my question then would be, why did anyone feel that Bernie was anti-establishment? Because I didn't invent that characterisation or narrative, but it got a lot of steam in spite of the voting record.
@benmouse42 This narrative does not stand up to scrutiny. every one did not feel that he was anti-establishment. You can imagine the trump campaign against bernie would have consisted of dismantling his 'image', surely.
@ordersanda Absolutely and I'm surprised my opponent didn't mention things the Trump campaign might do to try and dismantle Bernies image.I would once again say though, Trumps narrative of success also didn't stand up to scrutiny but it still persisted, what is unique about Bernies image that makes it crumble?
@benmouse42 His arguments against bernie would have been part of the trump campaign i suppose. The arguments against trumps succes are a moot point as he is a wealthy dude with a hot wife running for president:-) He is success personfied with much winning.... unfortunatlyHistory of failed or unsuccessful business ventures dont meen much if you are currentlly wealthy nor is that compairable to a warmongering politicle history whilst claiming to be the voice of reason.
@ordersanda Right so sometimes peoples image superceeds scrutiny. I agree, Bernie has a anti-establishment image that would have superceeded the voting record.I mean just ask yourself honestly, if you walked down the street and asked people if Bernie Sanders was establishment or anti-establishment what do you think the answer would be.
@benmouse42 Bernie's hypocracy and trump's success are not an equal comparison. one is easily shown to not matter if you are currently wealthy the other crumbles with a simple goolgle search of his voting record.Also the image of bernie has not been tested through a presidential campaign.
Who are the people that voted Benmouse42 to have won - his family and friends? He doesn't even know anything about the person he's supposedly supposed to defending and the common theme in these debates is that the idiots are the loudest, talking over the person who actually knows what he's saying.
@boredddddd666 I've been following and really like both these guys and I think you're being unfair. @rydawson is very passionate about the topics he supports and he knows his stuff while @benmouse42 is an excellent debater who can support his stance (even when he disagrees!) with pure logical reasoning. In this debate the topic was NOT if we like Bernie or if he is good/ bad but if he would have won the elections against Trump. And it's definitely debatable given that both were targeting underserved communities
@caratara I don't consider talking over another person when they begin to make a point every single time as "excellent debating". Especially when Ryan already addressed his argument and Ben just rambles on. And I know what the argument is about, but logic and reasoning only go so far when you're plain wrong about things. Ryan's argument was stronger but also more PROBABLE based on FACTS. Ben's argument rested on voters being as ignorant as he was about Bernie. Easy win for Ryan despite the vastly disproportionate talking times.
I really like Benmouse42's debate strategy - your opponent can't win if you just talk over all their points. Really effective.
One of my favorite quotes from Braindead42: "IF COMPANIES ALREADY LEFT BECAUSE OF TAXES, HOW CAN THEY LEAVE TWICE IF WE RAISE TAXES?" CHECKMATE.
I somehow doubt a country that elected a man with anti-Semites in his inner circle, who kept a book of Hitler speeches by his bedside, and whose supporters openly chanted Nazi anti-press slogan at journalists would've turned out in droves to vote for a proud Jew.And I say this as someone who voted for him in the primary. This is all with the benefit of hindsight.I think at most Bernie would've picked up Michigan in addition to the states Hillary carried, but even then Trump still gets over 270. It's a narrower electoral college victory, and we already know how it annoys Trump no end that he didn't even crack the top 45 in terms of EC victories and I admit I'd probably get a kick out of the schadenfreude of watching him melt down over an even bigger popular vote gap, but the end result would ultimately be the same.
@arkle the anti-semetic point is an interesting one, but not one that was brought up in the debate
Well I voted for Ryan in that qallout debate. That other guy took way to much of the floor and didnt fairly give Ryan the opportunity to dismantle his points. He would just ignore the point Ryan made and start a new one. Bernie shits on the middle class any chance he gets.
@weaponx1503 fair cop, I'm a fan of time limits for that reason. Tbh I found that ryan was the one who kept on changing the topic but I'm sure we are both guilty haha