2 years ago
Which side makes a better case?
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  • 2 years ago

    If the UN didn't control international law and enforce it, marijuana would be legal. @nellyj

  • 2 years ago

    This is the article I was reading off of- It refers to Apartheid but essentially the same thing
    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jake-beaumont/israel-not-apartheid-state_b_9128056.html

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj do you know what article this is responding to? The claims here are easy to refute. As there is really only one claim in this article that leads to a false conclusion. Because I explain in my debate with @batsheva_1, the territory is split into different zones, and the distribution of rights to Palestinians is different in every zone. You also have a refugee crisis with no right to return. Because it's split into different zones it meets the definition of apartheid under the Geneva Convention. This article only talks about the Israel proper zone. The recent UN report was based on the same argument.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo Indeed. Which is the precise reason Israel is reluctant to annex the West Bank Bank. The fact that the West Bank remains (the longest in modern history) an Occupied Zone then it can "technically" get away with the charge of Apartheid. We all know this is nonsense however. It is The Elephant in The Room!

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj I have to say I find your trust in a biased newspaper report rather surprising. This does not in any way represent scholarly research approaching even high school level. All my points are sourced from internationally recognized sources such as Harvard Law School, The United Nations, The Red Cross, B't Salem, Amnesty International etc etc. Not impressed I'm afraid...

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo I really didn't get how does this make Israel an apartheid state? Can you please explain it?
      Btw did you know that the Arabs who live in eastern Jerusalem have the right for a citizenship however they refuse to take it? However they do take the money from the national security.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 like I said in our debate the disputed area is split into zones, so it doesn't matter if Arab citizens enjoy equal rights in the Israel proper zone, if Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza have no rights. You also have to factor in that Arabs who leave any of these zones have no right to return. These factors meet the definition of Apartheid under the Geneva Convention, and other binding articles. I've also explained that what others do wrong doesn't make what you do right. But that should go without saying.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 and we agree that it would be better if it were all unified as one zone- of course there's more to it- but let's leave it at that.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo total lie. They can return whenever they want. And I don't see how what you say is relevant. What responsibility whatsoever do I have my Arab neighbors? Israel gives equal rights to its Arab citizens, while she has no responsibility whatsoever over Arabs living in Gaza who elected hamas.

      Whatever others do wrong doesn't make what I do right in case I do it. I've been trying to explain to you several times that what you think you know about Israel is inaccurate or a total lie. You refuse to listen. As Mahmoud A. Halim has just posted, definition of stupid: knowing the truth seeing the truth yet still believing the lies. The only reason i dont think you are stupid is cause you are too brainwashed. Thats when seeing the truth becomes challenging yet not imposible.

    • 2 years ago

      @alexkozvin1989 are you going to give evidence to support your claims? Because It only takes two seconds to google Palestinian Refugees and see that they have no right to return: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return.

      I'm not saying you have to do anything. I'm saying that I shouldn't have to support you, and that I want the conflict to end. Even Netanyahu told Congess in the 90s that Israel shouldn't be dependent on US aid and would be off it by now. But we have only seen the opposite. So It's very relevant.

      As long as you are occupying those territories, and a blockade is an occupation, you will have a responsibility to those people. Unless a solution or peace deal is met. The occupation is illegal under international law and has been recognized as so by both the US and UN.

      And I've told you I understand where you're coming from. But I want to see resolution. Because it isn't good for the US. And it isn't good for Israel either.

    • 2 years ago

      @alexkozvin1989
      I was present at this conference in 2015 and literally watched this woman who is a an Arab Israeli citizen US citizen break down in tears because her Husband could not be present when she gave birth in Israel, so their child would have a right to enter also. Her Family was split apart because it was too much of a burden to enter even if allowed. Are you calling her a liar?https://youtu.be/CyPq-TnqBPI

      I'm usually the first to call out someone for just posting a YouTube video and not explaining in there own words, but I've already done that.

      And I appreciate your time and always enjoy discussing this with you. I know we both just want our side to be heard.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo I just point out the fact that Israel is a Nation State and as a nation state they have every right to refuse entry to whomever the choose. You have no 'right to migrate into the country of your choice.' Israel sees a very valid threat from those in an area that continually imports terror into their country and has the legitimate right and responsibility to do what it can to reduce the threat to its citizens which includes many many Palestinians. I believe in small government but this is one of the essential features of a government: protect the Rigjts of Its citizens and control the borders.
      If the Arab countries around Israel actually cared so much, which they don't they merely use this as an excuse to persecute Israel, they would help the Palistinians by letting them in to their countries where they could have opportunity given the parallel cultures. They would also stop funding the PLO who steals all its Citizens money.

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj that's a great argument. You argue this very well. But your missing the point, that this woman and the points she makes has are in regard to Arabs who are citizens of Israel. This Woman is also a US Citizen, but had to go there to give birth so her child could enjoy the same rights. Arabs have to be born into the Israel proper zone to enjoy those rights. Whereas, anyone who is Jewish can migrate to that zone no problem. So it's not so much about protection from terrorist entering, as it is about creating a state for one religion and race. That isn't native I should add- so you also have the problem with refugees. That's the real problem at hand here. At best that defends the humiliating and time consuming searches and checks to enter the woman illustrates.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo
      Native is irrelevant. No natuion is today is truly 'native' but to this area of the world the Jews have the original claim on the land going back 3500 years.
      Most countries outside of Europe and North America have the same policies of refusing entry. Japan probably the most of all as far as countries people would want to immigrate to but can't.
      The fact that arabs are born in Israeli hospitals says something significant that they not only allow the births but care for those children at their own expense.

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj again, this woman is a citizen of Israel. She is not a refugee. Refugess are related to the issue, but not being used as an example here. She enjoys those rights as a citizen and has to have the child there so he could have those rights, whereas anyone who is Jewish, like me for example, could go there and enjoy those rights no problem. This argument is about if Arab Israeli citizens enjoy the same rights as Jewish citizens as you earlier claimed, and the Kozans claim.

      You're also assuming two things: a) the Bible is an historical document, and b) that because these people are Arab charity or the govt covers there bill.

      By that reasoning we should just leave our houses and hand over the keys to Indians. And This woman is a Lawyer in the US so I assumed she paid her bill. Although Israel has socialized medicine for all and still receives millions of dollars from US taxpayers every day.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo well that was my point behind the nativism bang irrelevant. If one wanted to build an argument based on the idea of nativism they would first need to find the natives and give them their land. Not possible.
      The Bible Is ahistorical document according to both sides they just differ on which son of Abraham.
      And they both get Billions in $US$
      To the specific case she was allowed in as a citizen but not her husband. No different than any other countries. She Chose her situtatin as could have had the child in the P area

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj She is a citizen in the Israel proper zone/territory. If she were a citizen of Palestinian Territories, she would not be allowed in or enjoy any rights period. The reason she chose to have her child in Israel is so he could be a citizen there and have rights. Most importantly, the ability to visit family who live in Israel proper.

      If you watch Ryan Dawson's most recent debate on this he claims Palestinians are in the Bible. But for me it's just a stretch. Palestinians were forced off that land with violence.

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj it's cooled off enough. We should just h2h this sometime. It would be fun. I mean that in a polite way.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo absolutely

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj @julian_cennamo I suggest you pick a cool angle on the topic to make it specific and interesting :-) we have also been considering introducing "negotiation" type debates i.e. debaters enter the discussion with the objective to reach consensus rather than just win. Especially for topics like this one, it might be a good approach to ensure constructive dialogue and conflicts resolution. Either way, looking forward to watching you guys!

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj let me know when, and if you have an idea for a specific topic in mind.

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj I thought you did not believe in the UN. How then can you call Israel a State, as statehood was legitimized by the UN...?

  • 2 years ago

    Palestine gets a LOT of international money
    http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000592

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj they do. And I'm also against foreign aid period. Rand Paul tried to cut the Palestinians aid, but AIPAC wouldn't have it. There are other examples as well. Although, I would argue the Palestinians need it more.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo I'm against all foreign aid as well, as I said in my debate, but the Palestinian Govt is among the strongest reasons to be against it. Virtually none of the money gets past their government's grubby thieving hands.

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj By your account we give four times more aid to Israel to carry out war crimes that are recognized by the UN as such. As long as we allow that to continue we will be bound to funding the Palestinians, and other Israeli neighbor states like Egypt. None of it goes for anything good. Since this topic comes up often I'd love to debate it sometime. Not feeling too great right now though.

  • 2 years ago

    @bookman. That was great. The only thing I would have mentioned is that the Palestinians have no right to return. Of course, the Palestinians outside of Israel proper have no rights, but you eluded to that.

  • 2 years ago

    One more thing I would like add is that this issue is not a left vs right thing. Yes, it's gaining traction with the left, but The NY Times, MSMBC, PBS, and other have been criticized for Pro-Israel bias. I've read pro-Israel editorials in the Huffington Post. If you remember the Republican primaries, Trump said he wanted to negotiate a peace deal because of the "pleading of his Jewish friends", or something like that and took a lot of heat for it. Not that he actually cares or is doing anything close to that.

    That's one reason why I make the case about aid, because Consearatives often bunch it with other social justice and identity issues, and I'm sure Michael would agree all of the criticisms of the identity left could apply to Zionism, and its supporters.

    If anything, the shift with the left has more to do with another lobbying arm J-Street, that simply represents the Israeli left party or Labor party. AIPAC is by far the dominant lobby, but it also represents the right party, or Lakud party in Israel. They take similar stances partisan issues like the Iran deal the way we do here.

    It's an ongoing ethic conflict and cannot be resolved that way.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo there's something you probably don't understand. Israel doesn't receive AID from the USA. It receives financing for specific causes that serve the USA interests, That is the USA'S policy, Israel isn't the only one who receives that sort of financing. However the Palestinians do receive AID. Billions of dollars which goes for terror and the pockets of their corrupt government, This year only the PLO payed 1 billion shekkels to convicted terrorists. without mentioning the AID that goes to Gaza which s being spent on digging tunnels and developing rockets. That is shameful, so if you do care about the American money, you should be also talking about this. If you bother to check the subject objectively, you will be outraged,

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 It's not about which side desearves funding, so much as saying resolution requires us to step away. Kind of like enabling a drug addict or alcoholic.

    • 2 years ago

      @julian_cennamo how exactly?

    • 2 years ago

      @alexkozvin1989 because if we weren't funding it- and this goes for both sides- you would have to make peace. US policy enables the ethic warfar.

  • 2 years ago

    @bookman I cant even count all the times you talked total lies. I will mention only a couple of them:

    The Gazan people elected Hamas, Israel has no influence whatsoever on the immigration policy in Gaza, In fact, Israel does allow the entrence of Gazan people to Israel for medical treatment,

    The 3 'no' of Khartoum say no for peace no for negotiations no for recognition.

    The lies you said about palestinian child being killed every 3 days is a lie. Total lie.

    And about palestinians being treated in israeli hospitals, its actually plaestinians! not israeli arabs, we do not talk about israeli arabs as palestinains,

    about the 800000 "ethnical cleansing" those arabs fled a war zone and most of them did that because their leaders instructed them to do so.

    what really did surprise me is the fact that you actually base your whole oppinion of the subject on lies and disinformation. This whole debate was over fake facts. This is not even funny this is sad.

    and i just want to relate to one more thing, you said " you call it terror" well if you consider butchering babies as a legitemate resistence then you need medical treatment or prison. you choose.

  • 2 years ago

    Just on the issue of the US supporting Israel, I think we should start to distance ourselves for a number of reasons. But to say that Israel is comparable to Nazi Germany is as @nellyj said, just inflammatory.

    • 2 years ago

      @lynnihendrix I can only suggest you first appraise yourself of THE FACTS. And bear in mind my argument is "BECOMING like.....". Thanks for commenting. Happy to debate you on this any time.

  • 2 years ago

    @bookman great debate! @nellyj Israel has Arab people dying behind blockades in an area they CAN'T leave, this almost exactly resembles Nazi Germany! All the Palestinian people want to do is live in peace and Israel refuses to allow this

    • 2 years ago

      @votesaad they can leave but typically have nowhere to go since all the surrounding countries have refused them entry as well. Those in Israel are full citizens with all the rights of being citizens. Why are you specifically singling out Israel? It's the Arab leaders who cause the death and great poverty by stealing the Palestinians' wealth.
      Israel would no doubt enjoy nothing more than the ability to live in peace with the so called Palestinians and not be worried about the terrorism and money spent on security but Many people in Palestinian area do Not want to live in peace with Israel which is why they allow the rockets and engage in terrorism. If you wish to consider them a separate country than the entire argument is mute as its sthe moly countries at opposition. Israel shows great restraint by not doing what they could do.

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj even your own implied "advice" to "Arabs" resembles that of the Nazis. To say that Palestinians should GO and live in other "Arab" countries is akin to what the Nazis did/wanted. That's also like saying all the people of Belgium should go and live in a fellow European/Christian country and make way for another race. The Palestinians are living in their HOME LAND and any atempt to move them is ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL. Yes of course Israel wants to live in peace but it wants to do so at the price of disallowing the Palestinians their HUMAN RIGHTS. Neither is RESISTANCE terrorism; enshrined in International Law is the Right To Resist Occupation. Oh I forgot you don't believe in the United Nations; then you clearly don't believe in the legitimacy of Israel since the UN "legalized" it into existence. Or it is a case of you cherry-picking the UN laws when it suits you?

    • 2 years ago

      @nellyj "Israel shows great restraint by not doing what they could do." so what, are you advocating genocide?

    • 2 years ago

      @votesaad thanks mate. Some people just can't see the truth if it hit them between the eyes!

    • 2 years ago

      @votesaad you know that Gaza isn't under Israeli control dont you? Whoever doesn't allow the gazan people leave if that is true, which I have never heard of, is Hamas. And your last sentence is the opposite of the truth. I can't even decide from which point to start refuting it. Maybe you can tell me, if you are convinced that they want to live in peace, why they pay terrorists who committed a terror attack?

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 go back to your fairy stories.

    • 2 years ago

      @bookman you are as pathetic as all the anti semits. Your hate eats you from the inside. I can only pity you. If only you knew how hard you make me laugh while sitting there spreading your lies. You can only speak to all the haters like you are. Reasonable people can refute every word you say with a simple Googling. I invite all those who question my position try and refute my statements. Please do. Have a good one.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 the only hater is you. you sit in your racial colony and dare to question the reality. You are the pathetic one (that means someone to be pitied). you are not part of the real world. Now please just fuck off.

    • 2 years ago

      @bookman I don't know which racial community you are talking about I have Arab neighbors which pretty much proves you wrong so before I fuck off let me tell you again that you are a liar. And the fact that you dont care about the truth makes you an anti semit-a racist. Ironic isn't it? And as for myself I don't hate anyone. Neither the Arabs nor you.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 oh, gosh, playing the anti-semite card, how clever of you. Zionist Global Language Dictionary Response Number 1. "If anyone criticises Israel just call them an AS". Pathetic. Now unless you can refute anything I say with credible sources please fuck off.

    • 2 years ago

      @bookman I just have sir, I have told you at least twice that I have Arab neighbors you can check this out on the Internet. Please read about my city its called Ariel. But hey, Israel isn't only about Jews and Arabs we also have none jews here of Russian origins. Who aren't of my race, does that still make it a racial community? BTW we also have bedhuinns here and of druze faith. Israel unlike you think is a very diverse society. Which refutes your statements. So for what you said about me playing the anti semite card when you criticize my country, it's not about you criticizing it, it's about you lying about it and hating Israel for whatever reason which exists only in your head, and whenever someone mentions anything that proves you wrong, instead of rethinking, you keep lying. That is exactly what makes you an anti semite aka racist otherwise you would've been less biased.