Jesus of the bible consistently referred to His Father as God, making it clear that God worked through him but I don't think he ever made it clear He and God were the same
@ryan_t14 @genuine_504 "The Father and I are one" great point. I'm not religious at all but I have read the bible and it is clear to me that Jesus and everyone who refers to him believes he Himself is God
@japes16 But in John 17, when Jesus prays to God on behalf of the Apostles, He says..."I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one."In other words, when Jesus uses the phrase "are one," he does not mean "literally one and the same" but unified in spirit and mission.
@deusvult I'm going to listen today but and I'm sure he brought this up but John 852Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.They knew exactly what he meant.
@deusvult would you be interested in doing it again? I'm not a theologian but I'd really enjoy going at it over this topic.
@deusvult can't this also be interpreted as more literal? That He and God are the same?
@nellyj I've said my piece on the topic, though I'd be up for other theological debates.
@fitzy45 Yeah if you're bad at interpreting words and context then sure why not.
@deusvult I thought I had a "Jesus Is God" up but that's essentially the same topic anyways so I'm not sure what your views are. I don't think I disagree with you on many other big topics haha
@nellyj Yeah I actually scrolled through your topics and I think our views are extremely similar as well. I didn't see anything that made me wanna FIGHT
This seems like it boils down to argument about language. The bible has hundreds of interpretations and just by looking at the text it is almost impossible to discern. For every line that supports Jesus and God are one in the same, there is a line to support the opposite. Well debated though guys, I'm enjoying watching!
@jeeep33 It's closer to one extremely vague reference compared to dozens and dozens of times Jesus explicitly describes God as separate from Himself.
As I stated in the debate. Regardless of whether we debate it or not. The people of that era understood it as him saying he was God. He was crucified for blasphemy for saying he and God were one.
I thought DeuVult was a Christian? this is a central Christian tenet that is clear in the Bible
@akyriak I am Christian, and no it is not. Did you watch the debate?
Cool debate. What happened to @deusvult fascinating fellow and he argues well. The mask is amusingly surreal.On balance I agree with the frog here. Not that Terrance's passages are wrong, just that there are more passages that speak to Jesus as distinct than the two that implies he is one in the same.As I see it Jesus is of the exact same Will as God, but he is not actually God of the OT, God the Father.