Resident Judges:Please reply here with your analyses and judgements, and select a winner best on your analyses. Thanks!
Hey guys, I felt like I had a ton more to say but not enough time. There were a few points I omitted from my notes for the sake of time, so please let me know if I can elaborate on anything/provide any more feedback. This was a close debate and it truly came down to analyzing the sources.
@sarahmiller hmm, I understand what you're saying, and perhaps I was unclear, but those were not what I was using the sources to say. Fact Check.org I only cited because they pointed out that PP does not provide mammograms, which is also seen when you look at their annual report, which shows 0 mammograms provided. What they actually do is provide referrals to Federally Qualified Health Centers who do provide mammograms, and those FQHC's are where I was advocating the money be sent in the first place.The Guttmacher Institute is a pro choice think tank, I was simply quoting them to show the total amount of abortions, vs. PP's percentage of the pie, according to their own numbers. They make up less than 2% of most women's health options, but 35% of abortions, even according to a pro choice institutes numbers.The only "biased" source I used was the Charlotte Lozier institute, and I used them because they are the only institution that provided a study on the amount of FQHC's vs. PP's in the country, and I see no reason to believe that their numbers are inaccurate.And lastly, I wasn't saying that PP is violating the legal aspects of the Hyde Amendment, since if they were they already would have been prevented from receiving funds. But federal funds certainly are funding abortions, since you can't separate the agency from it's actions. If I fund the KKK's "home improvement" projects, I would technically get away with it, but everyone knows that would free up the rest of their money to use on their other activities, just like Planned Parenthood is able to do with federal tax dollars.Thanks for judging and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough originally. I respect the decision, just wanted to be clear about what I was trying to say. :)
@debateme13 Thank you for clarifying! I appreciate the detail in your response. It is always a bit of a challenge in determining the validity of each statistic. Overall, your sources were well-presented and clear; however, I was looking for a stronger connection to your sources regarding how Planned Parenthood dedicates a "majority" or "most of" its funding towards abortion. Again, this was definitely a close one. Great job. Looking forward to seeing more from you!
@sarahmiller fair enough. Perhaps I insinuated that the majority of PP's services went to abortion. If I did that was my mistake, because it's inaccurate lol. The majority of their services toward "pregnant" women are abortions, with 160 abortions for every adoption referral, but the majority of their overall services don't go to abortions. It's more than the 3% number they try to say, but its still probably less than 50%.What I was trying to say was that they make up a very small percentage of the opportunities afforded to women for care, except on abortions, where they offer more than a third of the nations abortions.
Great debate mate, @debateme13 . Was a blast
@benmouse42 Fun stuff man, well played keeping away from the nitty gritty abortion debate :D.
I'm impressed you guys managed to avoid making this a debate only about abortion! @benmouse42 always a pleasure watching you debate, I really like your comparison to the prison system
@jessvdb agreed on the abortion thing. Honestly, I like the idea of Planned Parenthood but anyone who's been there knows the service is terrible and those who work there incompetent. It should be defunded but something else and more effective should be put in its place
Looks like theres been a last minute surge for side pro.Maybe best some judges determine this one!
Having said that I checked and I was ahead at the 72 hour point. Is it the pro sides job to dispute then?
@benmouse42 72 hours isn't up yet, not for another 2 hours. But the vote has certainly been back and forth. Tuesday night after the debate I was up 50/40, then by Wednesday night you were up 50/40, Thursday night it was 44/46, and a few of my friends shared it last night so now I'm up 51/42.
@benmouse42 That being said, I'm open to bringing judges in, since it was close. But I do think this round was very dependent on evidence, so I think if we're going to bring judges in we should each post links to any evidence we referenced in the round. Is that fair?
@debateme13 the vote certainly has been back and forth!Im cool for judges. Debating doesn't usually involve references to my knowledge (for the obvious reason that there is plenty of "online evidence" to support both sides haha)But cant hurt. Start a new thread with some links and I'll post mine in reply I won't be able to respond for a few hours though cause I dont get home for a while today
@qallout @benmouse42:We agreed to post links to sources for the judges to view, since a lot of the debate comes down to who's numbers we believe. Here are mine:Contested evidence:1. Services Offered by Planned Parenthooda. 0.97% of Pap Tests Nationwide271,539 in fiscal year 2014-15, out of 28.1 million testsSource: PP Numbers, see link belowb. 1.8% of breast exams363,803 exams in fiscal year 2014-15, out of 20 million examsSource: PP Numbers, see link belowc. 0% of Mammogramshttp://www.factcheck.org/2012/10/planned-parenthood-and-mammograms/d. 35% of abortions Planned Parenthood offered 323,999 abortions in fiscal year 2014-15, out of approximately 926,200 abortionsSource: PP Numbers, see below, also Guttmacher Institutehttps://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-statese. 160 abortions for every one adoptionSource: PP Numbers, see below. PP Annual report 2016 (2015 was just taken offline)https://www.plannedparenthood.org/uploads/filer_public/18/40/1840b04b-55d3-4c00-959d-11817023ffc8/20170526_annualreport_p02_singles.pdf2. 20 Federally Qualified Health Centers to every 1 Planned ParenthoodSource: Charlotte Lozier Institutehttps://lozierinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reallocating-Planned-Parenthoods-Federal-Funding-to-Comprehensive-Health-Centers-March-2017.pdfandhttps://lozierinstitute.org/health-clinics-nationwide-compared-to-planned-parenthood-centers/Uncontested:1. Human Life Begins at Conception,Source: Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, Science Textbook https://www.amazon.com/Potters-Pathology-Fetus-Infant-Set/dp/08016787062. Overwhelming Scientific Agreement,Source: Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981
@debateme13 Kk, here are my claims that require sourcing:1) PP does many other services other than abortions and those services outnumber abortions by a huge factor.https://www.plannedparenthood.org/uploads/filer_public/18/40/1840b04b-55d3-4c00-959d-11817023ffc8/20170526_annualreport_p02_singles.pdfhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/08/04/how-planned-parenthood-actually-uses-its-federal-funding/?utm_term=.ad43da326cc0http://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/planned-parenthood/2) Even though in comparison to every other agency combined PP's patient % looks small, in reality that is still a very significant number of people.*the sources for claim 1 also support this claim, the numbers are ~2.5million patients and ~11 million services, depending on study and year.3) Many of the sources provided by the opposition are from known anti-abortion groupshttp://www.politicalresearch.org/2013/08/23/the-charlotte-lozier-institute-plots-new-strategies-in-war-on-women/4) PP has a huge number of clinics and infrastructure that already exist and would go to waste if it was defunded.http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/04/health/planned-parenthood-by-the-numbers/index.html*the sources in claim 1 also support this claim*5) The Hyde amendment does not ban federally funded organisations from performing abortions, it just bans the actual federal funds from going to abortions.http://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/perspective/the-hyde-amendment-and-coverage-for-abortion-services/ - interestingly enough there are exceptions for rape and incest but that did not enter the debateThe rest of my points in the debate were either examples of pointing out logical contradictions between claims or pointing out rhetorically deceptive claims and thus do not require sourcing.Happy judging! This debate (in my humble opinion haha) was bloody good. Well contested @debateme13
@benmouse42 @debateme13 sorry for the delay on this, we are selecting only our experienced RDs for this debate and they're still busy today.. Max within the next 24 hrs, this will be decided. apologies for the inconvenience
@yaz no worries at all, thanks for working to make it as fair as possible. Win or lose I've enjoyed this tournament.
Invest in the welfare of the People.
When is the beginning of a human being?If one believes it is at the moment of conception then abortion is murder.If one believes it is at the moment of cutting the umbilical cord then abortion is not murder.For instance, Judaism teaches that the soul does not enter the body until 1 month after birth.Jesus never spoke out against abortion, but he did speak out a lot against the wealthy and the hypocrites who thought themselves to be spiritual while continuing to sin. The New Testament never says anything about abortion, yet it rails against greed, envy, ambition, love of money, hatred, divisiveness, self-centeredness, slander, gossip, lust, adultery, deceit, malice, and rage.Anyone who is against abortion and is not also against the military industrial complex and all their murders and savagery is inconsistent.The USA is terrorist nation #1 in the world today.The level of willful ignorance and shameless apathy is mind-boggling.Moreover, there is so much misinformation and disinformation put out by the corporate media."The USA is terrorist nation #1" https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-USA-is-terrorist-nation-1/189645587773074