Does having to remain a Jewish state deny rights or equal opportunities to citizens of other ethnicities
a quick question for the pro side, you mentioned the Rome Statue when the crime of Apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." So how is denying the practices from Israel towards the Palestinians similar to crimes against humanity?
but Palestinians are able to run for offices and become elected officials in the state of Israel so i am still unable to see how this still is classified under apartheid.
Israel gives Arabs (Muslim or Christian) far more rights than 'Palestinian states' give any Jew or Christian. [Or - to be more direct - plenty of Arab Muslims and Christians live in Israel, have good paying jobs, can vote, can serve in the military, can vote, etc. Any Christian or Jew in "Palestine" would likely be killed....]To compare a democratic state where people have lots of rights with corrupt areas that are led by tyrannical corrupt leaders is laughable and pathetic.Ask anyone who would consider voting for the PRO side...what would your life expectancy be if you suddenly ended up in Israel......or 'Palestine'...and which one would you prefer?
Remember that the UN has had over 90% of resolutions where they condemn some 'evil' - targeted at Israel - a democracy where peoples of all faiths can live. OTOH - very few condemnations of nations that commit genocide, attack other nations, oppress their own people, etc. The UN is ardently anti-semitic and anti-US. We would be better off withdrawing from that corrupt institution.
@mvineyard When the UN first recognized Israel as a member state in 1949 it only had 58 member countries with a democratic and pro western orientation today it's 193 member countries most of which are not even free. @burnsstephen16.
@burnsstephen16 Yeah I agree with you when I debated Julian about this I told him the same thing it's a difficult situation to solve, however as it seems you have to a conclusion that it's not difficult to understand.
@bashee_debates Israel has been looking for PEACE - something that the 'Palestinians' won't agree to. Israel was willing to relinquish lots of territory for recognition of the right of Israel to exist, and for peace - but the 'Palestinians' won't give recognition to Israel. They continue to fight Israel, with the goal of 'driving them into the sea' and eliminating Israel. Israel should tell that Palestine would lose permanently 10 square miles of territory for ever Israeli that is hurt or killed during any attack by 'Palestinians'.AND - there IS a 'two state solution' - and it was essentially implemented when Israel was created as a very small state - with Jordan being the state for those Arabs that did not want to live in Israel.
@mvineyard you really don't know what you're talking about. And you're advocating practices of Collective Punishment: A war crime under the Geneva Convention.
@bookman Sorry - I don't get what you are talking about. Your statement makes no sense.I point out that the 'Palestinians' refuse to recognize the state of Israel, refuse to accept that Israel has a right to exist, they continue to bombard them, attack them, send in terrorists to attack people in Israel - then celebrate any successful attack....and you think that, somehow, it is all Israel's fault? WOW....
@mvineyard Well, firstly you are wrong: The Palestinian Authority DOES recognize The State of Israel. It does NOT however recognize it as a Jewish State (why the fuck should they?). No one has to accept the right of any nation to exist, it is sufficient to acknowledge its existence in law (Ghandi never accepted to legitimacy of Pakistan, just the reality). Israel is the one who bombards Palestinians (and has been since 1948 or have you been asleep?), they send drones in over Gaza, murder the Hamas leaders, lock up thousands of ordinary Palestinians (incl children) the manner of which is illegal under the Geneva Convention, steal resources (again illegal). Are you telling me that Israelis don't celebrate their murderous attacks? How about Baruch Goldstein when he machine gunned 29 people (and wounded a further 125) in that mosque? Don't they have a shrine for him? Israel is occupying Palestine just like the Nazis did with half of europe. It is LEGAL to resist occupation. However the Palestinians of the West Bank are committed to a peaceful solution (in fact I had Iyad Burnat, the leader of the Non Violent Resistance Movement here in my bookshop in July. He told us how 3 of his sons have been shot, one of them is now permanently crippled, by the Nazis, sorry I mean the IDF). You really don't know what you're talking about and I'd be happy to debate any day.
@bookman I will not deal with an anti-Semitic liar. BTW - it was a bunch of Muslims (including the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) that were 'favored guests of Adolf Hitler. They really liked Hitler's plans for a 'Final Solution' to the Jewish problem.Perhaps you can explain why the textbooks of Palestinian chldren don't show Israel? Perhaps you can actually show me WHERE it is written down and signed by members of the Palestinian 'government' where they RECOGNIZE Israel's right to exist.Yes, Israel frequently has to respond to rocket attacks -by firing back at the positions that the Arabs shot from. Of course, the Arabs often shoot next to Mosques, Schools, hospitals, etc., and when responding/retaliating to rocket fire DELIBERATELY aimed at killing civilians, there will likely be collateral damage. You mentioned ONE deranged Israeli going on a shooting spree. Shall we try to count the number of terrorist attacks by Arabs vs. terrorist attacks by Israelis? What happens to a captured Israeli soldier? (Likely - killed, or traded for hundreds of terrorist criminals locked up for terrorist attacks.) As I said...you focus on evil deeds of jaywalking while giving murderous thugs a pass...but that is typical of terrorist supporting anti-Semites.
@mvineyard lol. here we go, I always get the ant-semite thing from a Zionist who has no argument. As Socrates said "when the debate is lost slander becomes the tool of the user. as for the Palestine schoolbook thing, I hasve a book here written by a Jewish Israeli professor Nurit Peled-Elhanan (daighter of Israeli General Mati Paled. In it she catalogues the brainwashing of Israeli children: for instance maps do not show Palestine at all. Also all Arabs are always shown as cartoon figures NEVER as real people. Israel is an evil occupying power and some of the largest anti-zionist groups are now Jews themselves. If you want to debate, I'm game any time. If not then zip it.
@mvineyard In 2011, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967."
@mvineyard Haaratz: "How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?Netanyahu’s new 'Jewish state' mantra negates the fact that Palestinians recognized Israel more than twenty years ago. They’re still waiting for Israel to recognize Palestine.read more: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.579701"
@bookman Palestinian offers of 'recognition' usually come with non-negotiable requirements like Israel must return to the original 1948 borders AND recognize a 'right of return' of Palestinians. No - the Palestinians actions are designed to destroy Israel and kill or remove Jews from the Middle East.
@mvineyard you're disillusioned and talking nonsense. There is no "offer" of recognition by the Palestinians- they do recognize Israel. Israel however does not recognize Palestine:"September 9, 1993Yitzhak RabinPrime Minister of IsraelMr. Prime Minister,The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era...I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. The PLO commits itself...to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations...the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators...the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.Sincerely,Yasser Arafat.Chairman: The Palestine Liberation Organization. "Care to debate, or frightened i'll embarrass you?
@mvineyard actually the UN requires Israel to return to the 1949 borders. You're way out of your depth.
@bookman A reasonably balanced news article covering both sides of the issue. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-11104284 Palestine INSISTS on 'right of return' ...and the displaced 750,000 Arabs who left in 1948 (most fled to clear the area out for invading armies to wipe out Israel) - now are about 4,000,000. Israel can't absorb that number and continue to exist. In the mean time - the Arab countries EXPELLED (often after stealing their possessions, bank accounts, etc) - abount 800,000 Jews, which Israel took in.So..it is a 'wash'. Arab states can absorb the refugees, and Arab states can provide payment to Palestinian refugees.....or they could make payments to the Jewish refugees that were expelled, and Israel could turn around and give the same payment to the Palestinians.AND - http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/israel-the-palestinian-authority-and-barriers-to-peace A commons sense discussion of how to achieve peace. HOWEVER - it would never be acceptable to Palestinians - they get statehood, no right of return, and they must stop praising terrorist attacks and paying family members
@mvineyard @bookman This would be a legendary H2H!!!!!
@gigi No....I won't subject myself to diatribes of lies by someone who will tell lies about Israel (claiming that they somehow are evil....just because they try to defend their population)....and tell lies about the Palestinians (how their terrorist attacks really aren't terrorist attacks, how breaking in to a home and attacking, stabbing elderly or children is somehow justifiable.)Note that @bookman never indicated that he would prefer to live in the Palestinian territories where the leaders keep everyone is abject poverty....and how they swindle/steal much of the aid money that comes in. Note that he won't remark on how plenty of Palestinians had jobs inside Israel (some still do)...but terrorist attacks made on Israel forced Israel to build a wall and have controlled entry points to ensure terrorists don't come through. @bookman won't condemn suicide bombers that attack people in Israel. He won't condemn the government paying large monthly 'stipends' to the families of suicide bombers. No - we would argue past each other ...to no real point. Not worth my time.
@mvineyard Either you want to debate this or you don't . Put your money where your mouth is. You are simply spouting Zionist propaganda. They label anyone a terrorist. To them a terrorist is simply someone who opposes the Apartheid State of Israel. Israel carries out collective punishments which often leaves families without homes. The PA pays those families out of human decency. Israels IDF murderers are paid & praised for committing murder. Debate or zip it. https://www.qallout.com/debate/3394-israel-is-the-aggressor-not-the-victim/record
@mvineyard well it's clear to me mate that you're just plain scared of being outclassed. This really is the official definition of BULLSHIT. I get this all the time from ignorant Zionists who think they are so righteous but when it comes down to it they act like pussies cos they cannot face a real opponent. Qall Out's not for you mate. Go watch a movie.
@bookman What ever makes you feel better. Of course - Israel is a democracy - and all people can vote. Women aren't treated like chattel. "Honor killings" of women is not permitted. There is a huge list of nasty offenses that are 'tolerated' (heck - encouraged, permitted, etc.) in the adjacent nations and Palestinian area, and the people don't have any real 'rights' or liberties, unlike in Israel. SO - it is impossible to debate with someone who supports all the evil things that are permissible in those societies as to how 'moral' Israel is - when that country is light years ahead in how it treats people.
@burnsstephen16 Steven I have challenged Julian on this point of Apartheid before but in this case he gives the definition of Apartheid of when one Military force (Israel military) dominates another Military force (Palestinian Terrorist groups *Palestinian Authority*, *Hamas*, *Islamic Jihad* stationed in Palestine and are recognized a terrorist militant groups under the disguise of PLO government whose current chairman is Mahmoud Abbas, he is also the President of the State of Palestine ). Here is my challenge Steven that I constantly challenge Julian with regards to what contributes to the confusion of this conflict he never wants to engage anyone on the full historical context of this conflict. The Palestinians do not have a right to an independent State on historical grounds which Julian refuses to engage on because that state known as Palestine today was known as Jordan historically they dominated that entire region outside of Israel and the West Bank before the six day war when Israel took the West bank from Jordan. Originally it was Jordan and Israel. And today in Jordan there are 70% of Palestinians living there and for this reason I just don't see why there needs to be a second Palestinian State in the region. Netanyahu actually wants to bring regional partners on a potential future peace deal because he knows Jordan, Egypt, oppose a Palestinian State now Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia will pretend that they do for public consumption but they actually don't want it here's why if there was a Palestinian State on the border of Jordan it would immediately become a terrorist threat to Jordan itself and Egyptians don't want a Palestinian State on their border because President of Egypt El-Sisi has been having border trouble with Hamas's stand in Gaza because Egypt is control of the sinai desert which runs all the way up to the Gaza strip. The Israeli government has a constant offer on the table to Jordanians that if they want to take over all the Palestinian territories they can and you know what they constantly say "NO" nobody wants to be in charge of this in the region and I believe the reason why is because these territories are filled with a terror government.
@bashee_debates you're really showing your lack of understanding by referring to the "State of Palestine". It is NOT a State.
@bookman In 2012, the United Nations recognized the "State of Palestine" as non-member observer state, but this did not abolish the function of President of the Palestinian Authority, as this originated from the Oslo Accords.
@bookman Unlike the function of President of the PA, the President of the State of Palestine is not validated by democratic elections, but rather by the PLO.
@bookman On 23 November 2008, the PLO Central Council formalized the function by electing Abbas President of the State of Palestine.
@bashee_debates duh, Palestine is NOT a State Sebastien, don't make out like it is. Abbas heads the Palestine Authority.
@julian Did you know that Israeli Arabs fight in the Israeli military?
@burnsstephen16 I would like to have a disussion with you as well Steve to counter alot of the imformation you recieved from Julian. No debate just discussion.
@bashee_debates sure we can have that conversation! send me a message and we'll set it up!
@burnsstephen16 I just responded to your private message Steve.
@burnsstephen16 thanks for the great conversation. I really enjoyed our time. Here are the references you requested:“According to the poll, 53 percent of Palestinians support a two-state solution to the decades-long conflict with Israel, while 46% oppose it. Moreover, there has been a drop in support for armed confrontation from 53% last month, which was taken directly after the 50-day summer war in Gaza, to 44% the new poll found. “http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Majority-of-Palestinians-still-support-2-state-solution-new-poll-says-381141#article=0QjAyNDU5Qzk2RDU5RjlCMTUwMzg4NDFCQ0UzNDYyNzU=“Meanwhile, a quarter of Israelis and 35 percent of Palestinians told the pollsters they supported a one-state solution.”http://www.palestinechronicle.com/poll-support-one-state-solution-rise-among-palestinians/UN Report (Exec. Summary is only about five pages).https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/201703_UN_ESCWA-israeli-practices-palestinian-people-apartheid-occupation-english.pdf4th Geneva Convention, Article 72-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention“7A. Prevention of participation of candidates' list (Amendments 9, 35, and 39) a. A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset, and a person shall not be a candidate for election to the Knesset, if the objects or actions of the list or the actions of the person, expressly or by implication, include one of the following: negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state;incitement to racism;support of armed struggle, by a hostile state or a terrorist organization, against the State of Israel.“https://knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic2_eng.htmhttps://www.amazon.com/The-Two-State-Delusion-Palestine-Narratives/dp/0670025054?tag=bleedheartlib-20The Israel Lobby and US Foriegn Policy essay version: http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0040.pdf“The initiative calls for normalizing relations between the Arab region and Israel, in exchange for a full withdrawal by Israel from the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) and a "just settlement" of the Palestinian refugee problem based on UN Resolution 194”https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_InitiativePro-Palestinian debate on one state vrs. two state solution:http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/upfront/2017/06/palestine-israel-state-170602095049959.htmlI also have a slight correction. I said Ron Paul was wrong, but I should have said those supporters were. He stays neutral but explains why it’s not in US interest and would force a resolution in this video from a few weeks ago. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zGA7Vu3daq8
Just because there's some rights granted to Palestinians doesn't mean apartheid doesn't exist. There still could be one specific ethnic group dominating another in many Extreme Ways.
@tc394410 Would you rather live in the area controlled by the PLO and/or other Palestinian terrorist groups...or in Israel? Simple question.DO you think that the 'Palestinian groups' have a right to send in terrorist attackers to Israel? Do you think it good that their textbooks omit reference to Israel and want to end the existance of Israel?Seems to me you are focused on the equivalent of a 'jaywalker' - while letting the mass murderer go free.
Well it's refreshing to see a very civilized discussion. I can't really call this a debate as it seemed to simply be a case of Julian educating his opponent. Very well done for showing such mutual respect for each other. What came out was I think some of the misconceptions involving this issue (of which I think some were put to bed). I feel some of those commenting below should challenge Julian or me to debate this topic rather than just sniping from the shadows...