Even models, actors, singers and the whole show biz industry is characterized by all these elements right? sex, drugs etc.
@gigi This is true, I didn't even think of that tbh
@jb043 I found it interesting that you didn't bring up the pay difference. If feminism cars for wage equality it should be mentioned that the porn industry is one of the few industries where women make a lot more than their men counterparts. Sometimes 2 as much.Also, 16 of the 20 top paid porn actors are women. Eight of ten actors with the largest net worth are women. While some women are exploited, some women turn this into multi million dollar businesses.Jenna Jameson is worth 15 million dollars, I'm very sure she considers herself an entrepreneur not a victim.
@gigi @gigi Yes, but we don't ban them because their work is impactful and has a big portrayal of different elements of life and carries the potential of changing lives positively unlike the porn industry.
@genuine_504 I will respond to your question as I get back home. One question for you, if you think pay difference exists in terms of gender, why would all companies not hire women? That way their investment in the employees would be far less than with men.
@genuine_504 two responses;1- just because some women earn more than men from an exploitative industry, doesn't mean we should leave it as is. Because he reality is that a huge amount of the content that can be found online is amateur and unpaid, it's very unfeminist to champion the industry because some women earn heaps of money out of it while we forget about all the women who don't. 2- The feminist movement cares about all women, not just the ones who earn big bucks, or those who don't. That is to say, if the porn industry doesn't represent feminist ideals for all of the women in it, then it needs to be changed. It's probably really great that those women make an incredible living out of it, but the societal harms that come from that outweigh that money. Earning that money comes at the cost of perpetuating the dominant narrative that women are 'submissive' and only exist as sexual objects for pleasure. Which is why the industry needs to be changed despite the fact that women do earn more than men in a number of cases
@jb043 I agree with everything you said except for the money coming at the expense of perpetuating the dominant narrative that women are submissive. There are women owned production companies. There are women CEO's and Executives who shape the porn industry. The women pick their movies and what jobs they want to do. I don't agree with this notion that women in the porn industry are victims being taken advantage of or being manipulated by men.
@genuine_504 As Josh said the economy wouldn't be a good point for this debate, I agree with him. Even if you look through an economic viewpoint, there are other forms of art that exist which lets women earn hefty and be a respectable person as well. Why sell their bodies? Feminist movements nowhere promote the idea of empowering women by making them compete with each other for money based on who has better body or moves.
@genuine_504 as was said in the debate, there are women who choose to enter the industry and there are women who do not. Sure, some women profit insanely off being an actress in this context. But not all of them do. Some women do get to pick the scenes and the jobs, but you can't just base that around a group of women who do because frankly, there are women who get coerced into performing. Whether it's from economic status, being in a country where you don't speak the language very well, or a manner of different things, women are coerced into an industry that profits off the back of their exploitation.
@enzilag I think your argument would be greatly benefited by some statistics. You're pointing to harms suffered by women in the industry, but I want to know what percentage of porn models believe they are currently being, or have at some point been exploited by that industry. Individual examples of exploitation happen in any industry, but if you're claiming that this is widespread in the industry, and that women would be better served by pushing back against porn, you need to show that there is a significant statistical amount of women in the industry who are being exploited/abused. I'd also be interested in seeing what the data is on how viewing porn changes men, and how viewing porn changes women, or how it changes relationships. If you provided more such evidence and focused on it as the core of your case, I think your argument would be more persuasive.
@debateme13 Hey! Thank you! I will take your suggestion into account.
@debateme13 @enzilag , this is my point. The statements made were like they were based on your morales. That they are being exploited based off of your morales. My point was according to some of these women they are not being exploited they are simply working in an industry that some "prudes" don't approve of. Not every woman who is in the porn industry is a result of trafficking, not every woman is a victim of depression. There are women who are very successful and live lives with husbands and kids in the suburbs. Some even have their husbands as their managers. I'm not a feminist but isn't that wrong to assume that in order for a woman to be considered normal or successful or unoppressed they have to live life they way others do.
@genuine_504 @enzilag The last time I check porn (!) I think i saw men there as well.. so if you make a point about exploitation then you should make it for both sexes. Also, if I'm not mistaken there is also a large porn market for female audience..So what about them?
@genuine_504 I disagree with the morals and lacking evidence kinda thing. Because I also had no "evidence" for the same things. Remember I was in favour of changing the industry because I agree with pro when she talked about exploitation in the industry. I never said women weren't exploited, I just took the stance that fixing that issue was better with changes not a ban. But I think that comes down to a difference in debating style where myself (and possibly my opponent) are used to logic based debating not evidence based. You're right in saying that not all women in the industry are there from coercion or that not all suffer depression, but some do. And keeping the industry as is with that information in mind isn't feminism, because we cannot be leaving those women who need that support behind.
@gigi while i agree that men are also in the industry and to some extent need to accounted for as well, I would say that in the debate they're not the most relevant stakeholder. Yes, the feminist movement does care about men, but in the specific context of this industry women and their wellbeing are far more important as they have so much more to less from an industry that makes money from degrading them and normalising behaviours that devalue their autonomy. Should you watch heterosexual scenes (same sex/solo scenes have no weight here) how many more times will you see a male in control than a woman? How much more often will you see a woman being slapped, having her hair pulled etc than men? That's creates worse narratives around women's sexuality than the current rhetoric around men.
@jb043 that could explain how we see this a little different. I prefer fact based debates because logic is based on morales and principles. And those things differ from person to person.I do understand your point, and I don't think anyone should be exploited.
@gigi Yes, it should be counted for both genders. I haven't just focused on a particular gender in terms of exploitation in my debate. In fact, I haven't discussed it much as it comes only as an assumption to us, we don't have anything concrete to prove it does.
@jb043 Your arguments didn't need evidence. You were just saying that if a problem exists, focus on the specific problem and make changes. Her argument is different though, since it's essentially throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If the problem is in individual situations, (and it appears to be) then your solution is the best. If the problem is systematic, then her solution becomes a stronger option. But she never showed that it was a systemic problem, so she's advocating widespread change off of a few individual examples of exploitation.
I loved this debate, debating with Josh is always challenging and fun. He was very strong with his points as well. Though, I just want to state a few things. This was a value-based debate for me while the con actually suggested policies as to implementing bans only on some categories. I didn't want to restart with mentioning my policies that would implement strong monitoring so that the black market wouldn't exist.Even when the con suggests a ban for some categories, everything he said on his refutations for me would still apply to those categories he wishes to ban as well. The black market would still exist for child pornography the same way he said it would. By that, he also agrees to the fact that pornography distorts people. Both of which falls on my side but I should have pointed it out in the debate itself, I didn't; so it stays favoring him in the debate.
@lupita Thank you so much! You resemble someone I know, someone. Haha, I don't know exactly who. Thank you for taking time to articulate it well. I will keep your suggestions in mind.
Porn should absolutely NOT be banned! It's a simple question of freedom. If people choose to be videotaped having sex, whether they're paid or not, or if people choose to watch porn, it clearly is not up to feminists or anyone else, for that matter, to take that choice away. I think your exploitation argument is a non-starter. First because people get to choose for themselves whether to be porn actors or to watch porn. NO ONE IS FORCING THEM, and if they are being forced that would be against the law, and subject to prosecution. Another reason why your exploitation argument doesn't hold water is what about other jobs, like body-builders, football players, models, or anyone else who uses their bodies or looks to earn a living could be considered as victims who are being exploited. Although most of them are making damn good money. I suggest the people who are REALLY being exploited are the people who can't break into those industries, and instead face long hours with minimum wages, and still can't make ends meet! More importantly, I would never be so obnoxious to tell you what you cannot or should not do (as long as no one is injured and there is mutual consent), so HOW DARE YOU tell me or anyone else what we cannot or should not do, again so long as no one is injured, and there is mutual consent????