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  • 2 years ago

    When discussing political theory or reality? Cause not sure if you can in the second case..:skull_crossbones:

  • 2 years ago

    If the discussion is civil, everyone's point ought to be considered.

    • 2 years ago

      @meta_self Except fascists. Punch them in the face. If we'd punched more fascists in the 1920s, there are millions of Jews, Romani, LGBTQ people, and Russians who might be alive today, or at least had lived long enough to die of old age.

    • 2 years ago

      @arkle Well if they're violent they're not civil, are they?

      I'm sure the brownshirts would have punched you and thrown you in jail faster.

      Violence beyond self-defense doesn't help prove an idea.

  • 2 years ago

    This seems like a great idea on paper. However, in practice, one side gets painted as extremist when it really isn't. In America, the political center in D.C. is SO far right (and I know I've mentioned this before but it remains true) that ideas that, when I was in middle school were put forward by Moderate Conservatives are denounced today as "Socialism." I hate to quote that smug prick Bill Maher, but he was right about one thing when it comes to the post-Nixon GOP. The Democrats have moved to the Right, and the Right has moved into the insnae asylum.

    Let me make this clear; when one side is saying "We want police to check people's pants to make sure that trans people aren't using public restrooms becuase we believe lies spread by religious nuts" and the other side is saying "Could we not do that maybe?" anyone who says "both sides" are extremists is an idiot and can be safely ignored. They offer nothing of value to any covnersation. They are not smart. Do not debate them. Do not be friends with them. Don't date them. Ignore them.

    Same deal with if they paint "We'd prefer that cops that murder unarmed Black people get arrested" as extreme. Or if they claim to be Atheists but only ever pick on Islam. Or if they say that rape accusation ruin people's lives while Bill Cosby is going on speaking tours and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

    • 2 years ago

      @arkle This is quite inaccurate. America has moved quite a bit to the left over the last few decades, which is a very easily provable fact.

      First, it's necessary to define the right/left spectrum. The right promotes social conservatism, aka government intervention to protect traditional values, while also championing fiscal liberty in lower taxes and government regulations. The left promotes social liberalism, believing in personal freedom from government control, while also pushing fiscal regulation and government control on economic issues. With that in mind, let's look at some of the ways America has changed recently.

      1. Homosexuality and LGBT equality went from being a fringe topic not espoused by either major political party, to becoming a hot button issue, and is now a cause promoted/believed in by the majority of the country.
      2. Healthcare has moved incredibly far to the left. During the 1990's, Hillary Clinton was considered a radical because of her calls for federally mandated health insurance. It was a pipe dream considered impossible in America. When Obama pushed for universal healthcare, the majority of the country was against the concept, but he had the necessary votes to pass the Affordable Care Act. This is a clear example of the nation having moved further left. Today, even with the GOP in power, there is a lot of pushback against the idea of repealing the ACA entirely. In the 90's, the concept of government mandated healthcare wouldn't even be discussed by the right, but today both the right and the left are agreed upon some level of a federal healthcare bill.
      3. Socialism/Democratic Socialism are no longer considered curse words. In the 90's, calling someone a socialist was considered an insult. Today, the runner up to the Democratic nomination for President, and the presumed frontrunner for a 2020 run, was a self proclaimed democratic socialist. Hillary Clinton, the woman considered a radical liberal during her husbands presidency, was outflanked on the left, and the progressive wing of the democratic party has moved further left than her, showing yet again that the country is moving left.
      4. As a general rule, all nations eventually move to the left, because once government's acquire power, it is nearly impossible to remove that power. We've seen this in America as well. Regulations are rarely removed, but they are added every single year.
      5. Criminal justice reform, marijuana legalization, and other personal liberty issues have all taken a sharp turn to the left. The Atlantic, always reliable, gives a good breakdown of how the country is moving left, and gives some good examples of how both the right and the left have begun embracing (or have fully embraced) the concepts of criminal justice reform. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/why-america-is-moving-left/419112/

      So with that being said, the premise of your comment is demonstrably false. America is not going right, and in fact it has taken a sharp turn to the left over the last 2 decades.

      But your comment also displays a worrying amount of partisanship. You repeatedly set up straw men against the other side, showing you do not understand, nor do you care to have a civil discussion with those you disagree with. You say that they are extremists, and that those who criticize both sides are not smart or worth being friends with. That mindset is exactly why the right and the left are growing increasingly distant from each other in terms of dialogue. We don't promote dialogue, instead we name call and villainize.

      With regards to your comment, the problem is not the other side. The problem is you.

      When you create such straw men, you seem to forget the fact that the people you are misrepresenting make the same exact arguments about you. They refuse to understand why you think the way you do, and make the same exact arguments with limited information and poorly thought out misrepresentations about these issues you care about, just like you did about the issues they care about. That partisan divide is exactly why this community debate resolution is accurate.

      The real irony here is that your comment proved the resolution you thought you were arguing against.

    • 2 years ago

      @debateme13 "This is quite inaccurate. America has moved quite a bit to the left over the last few decades, which is a very easily provable fact. "

      Clever little lie there. See, I said explicitly that I was talking about the political center in D.C., not amongst the general populace. I was not subtle about it. Yet you are responding as though I was saying that about the population as awhole, which, yes, has become more progressive. In fact, part of Trump's appeal to his base was a backlash against that progression. It's nothing new. Strides in civil rights for one group or another have, as far as I've been able to tell, ALWAYS led to a brutal push back from regressive, easily frightened, white male conservatives.

      "2. Healthcare has moved incredibly far to the left. During the 1990's, Hillary Clinton was considered a radical because of her calls for federally mandated health insurance. It was a pipe dream considered impossible in America. When Obama pushed for universal healthcare, the majority of the country was against the concept, but he had the necessary votes to pass the Affordable Care Act. This is a clear example of the nation having moved further left."

      And the Affordable Care Act was based in large part on REPUBLICAN ideas that were put forward as Conservative alternatives to the Clinton plan. As in, what was the Moderate Right at the time. Fast forward to 2008 and Republicans are now claling those same ideas, Far Left. Socialist. Communist. And that's just one example of the political center in D.C. shifting towards the Right, which was my point all along. If you want to try and debunk my point, at least make sure you're debunking the point I actually made, not the one you thought I made.

      "So with that being said, the premise of your comment is demonstrably false. America is not going right, and in fact it has taken a sharp turn to the left over the last 2 decades."

      I know that. You know that. Try telling that to the Inside the Beltway crowd though. Which, I seem to need to remind you since you utterly failed to grasp it the first time I said it in the post you were responding to, WAS MY POINT ALL ALONG.

    • 2 years ago

      @arkle well grammatically that's not what your initial post says, although I can see how you would have meant it that way, so thank you for clarifying.

      Many of the ideas in the Affordable Care Act were promoted by Republicans, that is true, but they promoted them at a state level, as opposed to a federal mandate. There's a reason Republicans called it forced socialism, and it's primarily because of the inclusion of the individual mandate. As a general rule though, the GOP has actually moved to the left on Healthcare.

      Also, the GOP is shifting left as well on quite a few issues (maybe slower than the Dems but still noticeably shifting) on criminal justice reform, marijauna, and even LGBT equality.

      Meanwhile, even if we were to say that the GOP is moving right (which is true on two issues, illegal immigration and abortion, where candidates pay lip service to the right on those issues) you didn't address the fact that Democrats are moving at an equal or faster pace to the left.

      To come back to the initial issue, my main point was that your hyper partisan straw men attacks on the other side, or on non-partisans, is detrimental and prevents you from seeing what's really going on, which is the country, and the Democratic party, is shifting left, while the GOP slightly moves left as well.

      Both the right and the left make the same silly attacks against each other. And the hyper partisan bias' are especially dangerous in modern times as people only get news from sources who confirm their preexisting beliefs, like CNN or Fox. All they see is cherry picked news about how devilish the other side is, which pushes both sides further and further away from each other.

    • 2 years ago

      @debateme13 "Also, the GOP is shifting left as well on quite a few issues (maybe slower than the Dems but still noticeably shifting) on criminal justice reform, marijauna, and even LGBT equality."

      Um, no they aren't. This is just a flat out lie. The current GOP adminsitration, with support from the GOP majority in Congress, has actively been rolling back Obama era gains in LGBTQ civil rights, criminal justice reform, and has stated publicly their intent to push back against states that have decriminalized it. Are you somehow posting to this site from Earth-2? If so, tell me, does your universe have a good Fantastic Four movie?

      "Meanwhile, even if we were to say that the GOP is moving right (which is true on two issues, illegal immigration and abortion, where candidates pay lip service to the right on those issues) you didn't address the fact that Democrats are moving at an equal or faster pace to the left."

      I wish that were true. What gains the Democratic party has made they've pretty much had to be dragged kicking & scremaing into by the base. As for the line about the GOP only paying lip service to the Right on immigration and abortion, again, you clearly do not live on this planet. Do you just not know that the Trump administration exists? ICE snatching up domestic violence victims for deportation from outside their hearing for a restraining order? Numerous states getting the majority of their reproductive health clinics shut down due to onerous regulations?

      "To come back to the initial issue, my main point was that your hyper partisan straw men attacks on the other side, or on non-partisans, is detrimental and prevents you from seeing what's really going on, which is the country, and the Democratic party, is shifting left, while the GOP slightly moves left as well. "

      The GOP is not moving left. This is a lie. Knock it off.

      "Both the right and the left make the same silly attacks against each other."

      Ah, yes, the "both sides are equally bad" chestnut. A common refrain used by the intellectually lazy.

    • 2 years ago

      @arkle The GOP is by definition, not as far left as the Dems, hence why they are repealing Obama era policies. That is to be expected when a new party gets into power, and it has nothing to do with the actual issue.

      The question is whether the party of today has moved more to the left than the party of a few decades ago. The answer is yes. Both the right and the left were against LGBT issues during the 90's. Today the left has embraced that issue, but even the GOP is more accepting of such issues today. Trump is actually the first president to openly support the homosexual community upon taking office. (Even if it is probably just lip service)

      When Obama took office he wasn't willing to take a position, and Bill Clinton even passed DOMA. Trump is obviously not as much of an advocate for LGBT issues as Obama eventually became, but he's certainly more open to the issue than the GOP has ever been. That shows up within the base of the party as well. Notorious internet persona Milo Yiannopolous somehow became popular within the GOP, despite being openly gay. That is a development that would have been impossible 20 years ago. The GOP is not as open to these issues as the Dems, but they're certainly more open than they were in the past.

      As The Atlantic pointed out, criminal justice reform is more commonly pushed in GOP circles than it was in the past, particularly among the more libertarian wing of the party. They gave a good example of Marco Rubio embracing the issue, and Rand Paul ran on it.

      Meanwhile, the party is open to federal involvement on healthcare for the first time in history, which is a clear sign of it's shift toward the center. There are numerous examples of the party changing it's positions in ways that move it further left, compared to how they viewed those same issues 20 years ago.

      All of your criticisms of the GOP policies are issues the GOP has had a stance on for their entire history. You're entitled to disagree with those stances, but it is false to say that the party is going right on those issues when they're keeping the same policies they had decades ago.

      The GOP is obviously not as far left as the Dems, but they are more left than they were 20 years ago. And even if they weren't, the Democrats certainly are. You respond by saying that the Democrats had to be pulled kicking and screaming, but that's politics; they were still able to be pulled. I presented multiple examples of issues on which the party has shifted to the left compared to years ago. The GOP has mostly stayed the same or slightly moved left, while the Dems are taking a pronounced move to the left, compared to each parties status in past years.

      Also, what's "intellectually lazy" is accepting a straw man narrative about your opponent rather than actually understanding their position.

    • 2 years ago

      @debateme13 "The question is whether the party of today has moved more to the left than the party of a few decades ago. The answer is yes. Both the right and the left were against LGBT issues during the 90's. Today the left has embraced that issue, but even the GOP is more accepting of such issues today. Trump is actually the first president to openly support the homosexual community upon taking office. (Even if it is probably just lip service)"

      It is definitely lip service. Hell, it's BARELY lip service. You are frnakly being naive elevating it to the level of lip service. Trump was nice to Caitlyn Jenner, that's about it when you really round it out.

      Seriosuly, whatever planet you're living on where the current adminstration *ISN'T* the most openly hostile to LGBTQ civil rights we've seen must be really nice. Can I live there?

      "Notorious internet persona Milo Yiannopolous somehow became popular within the GOP, despite being openly gay. That is a development that would have been impossible 20 years ago. "

      Not as impossible as you think. Look up Ernst Rohm sometime.

      "All of your criticisms of the GOP policies are issues the GOP has had a stance on for their entire history. You're entitled to disagree with those stances, but it is false to say that the party is going right on those issues when they're keeping the same policies they had decades ago."

      I've been active in politics for going on 29 years. The GOP has, as a whole, been moving further and further to the right since then. It is simple fact. You have your outliers, like the late Arlen Specter, but it's worth nothing that all those old school Conservtaives have done one of three things in the intervening 3 decades; sold out completely to the fringe (Tea Party), switched parties and became Democrats, or retired/died.

      "Meanwhile, the party is open to federal involvement on healthcare for the first time in history, which is a clear sign of it's shift toward the center."

      You say this as the party is poised to take away health caare from millions. Are you lying, or just dumb? I could believe either.

      "The GOP is obviously not as far left as the Dems, but they are more left than they were 20 years ago."

      Again, only on your Earth. Not this one.

      "I presented multiple examples of issues on which the party has shifted to the left compared to years ago."

      And all of them are wrong. A look at the voting records of the overwhelming majority of GOP congressmen could tell you you are wrong, yet you keep saying it anyway. So, are you lyhing, stupid, or living in an alternate reality? If it's the third option, I repeat my request to live there.

      "The GOP has mostly stayed the same or slightly moved left,"

      Again, not true in the slightest. Yet you say it with such authority. Do you also think the Cubs lost the World Series last year? Did Leo not win the Oscar on your Earth, or did he get his sooner? Does your side of the barrier still have zeppelins?

      "Also, what's "intellectually lazy" is accepting a straw man narrative about your opponent rather than actually understanding their position."

      Is there a word for someone who is spreading falsehoods having the gall to accuse people of strawmanning?

    • 2 years ago

      @arkle I'd love to see a debate between you and @nellyj. You both make the exact same arguments from completely opposing sides. Horseshoe theory at it's finest.

  • 2 years ago

    What would the point be then? Should we just observe those who agree on everything but have tiny, barely observable disagreements on a couple subjects? We could watch the guy who wants a 50% take rate debate the guy who thinks 45% is best. Yes, I'm sure That would be useful.

    • a year ago

      I will debate this. Add me on FB to arramge times.