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  • 2 years ago
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  • 2 years ago

    This debate is awesome.

    • 2 years ago

      I didn't even care about these books, and now I'm watching it like convince me!!!

      • 2 years ago

        Solid damn debate. Excellent work @ajgibson0418

        • 2 years ago

          Friends, I'm holding off voting in case I'm asked to judge this, but I will say this.
          This debate was awesome, very entertaining. In some ways I wish this could have been the final haha.

        • 2 years ago

          I wrote a long comment as the debate progressed, but then I lost it when it ended and the page auto-refreshed.

          I'm not going to rewrite it, just going to say I side with Pro, who had strong sources and a strong foundation. He provided plenty of warrant for his claims, and got to the heart of the issue.

          Con was too quick to dismiss anything that smelled movie-related, when he could have easily taken the time to address the thoughts on their face value.

          Ginny, as Con said, clearly felt like an afterthought in the books, while fans, actors, and writers felt the organic chemistry between Harry and Hermione that emerged in full force at the end of the story. Resolving that plot angle instead of discarding it would have been natural, and Jo herself admits it would have been the better choice.

          • 2 years ago

            @josephemcgowan ouch, sorry for the auto page refresh! You just gave us something to think about :) it's probably the first time we have someone writing an analysis during the debate all the way till the end, which makes a lot of sense as a use case... we will fix this on our end.

          • 2 years ago

            @qallout That happened to me once too. It also happens when I open Qallout on my phone. It sometimes tells me I'm logged in so I write out a massive comment, and then when I hit post, it tells me to log in. I log in, and all my comment has disappeared lol.

          • 2 years ago

            @qallout thanks!!!

        • 2 years ago

          You are both fantastic! Great speaking, great thinking, wonderful structure for your arguments, and confidence in every argument. WOW!

          I find it interesting that both argue on the lines of the compatibility of the characters in their matches. I kept wondering though, do good matches make for better stories? Since both accept this notion, I have to judge who has the better case for good matches. Pro makes the strongest case on this point I think, more detailed, and more persuasive. Con challenges many particular points but doesn't contrast them all that well by holding up a high value of the relationships that were in the book.

          On the Con side, I really like the line of argument on how do we judge what is a better book and that it's already pretty amazing. And he questions the notion that so much would have to change, there is a serious risk it would not be as good a story as it was. Is the bright line that the relationships in the book have a long term future? Con would have done well to give us some counter measure of Superior, though saying they are as superior as is possible by book sales and general acclaim is close to that. But why? It may not matter, he sells this argument really well to my ears.

          Con is very good at challenging evidence and he undermines a number of quotes based on their sources. Not so easy with the authors, but I think he takes down those actor quotes like a boss.

          But Pro is not to be denied. He sidesteps the rewrite and says they could have just switched the ending. I feel like that needs to be sold with more reasoning. I can see not re-writing all of them, but a fair bit would have to change and a sudden change of passion by the characters would require a lot of reworking in the later books and the outcome. How would Ron feel? What would he do?

          Con speaks to me when he says that this ending switch just wouldn't work and would make the story weaker and he's decided to focus on the argument I favor strongest in this debate. And it's a tough dilemma, change the full story and risk ruining it, or change the last part and create story dissonance.

          This is a debate where both debaters did everything right and it comes down to which perspective on Superior you are most persuaded by is how you vote. That's how I want debates to be. We hear cogent and strong arguments, and we make a call on which struck the most fertile ground. For me, that was Con.

          PS: I never finished the books, I headed that each one seemed to be about the same for the first 3-4 chapters and Harry's constant whining drove me to distraction. I liked the movies more. (If I end up having to do this topic this statement will no doubt come back to haunt me!) My planned arguments for this topic never came up in the debate so it was awesome to see some really good alternatives.

          • 2 years ago

            @sigfried I mean, I disagree with your conclusion (naturally lol), but also this is well thought out :D. Andrew and I were just talking over Messenger about how it really does come down to your interpretation of what makes something Superior. He's arguing that the books sold well and were great the way they were. I'm arguing they may be great, but that they were less authentic and truthful as literature. Whichever interpretation the voter goes with is the way they could wind up voting. I just wish Andrew and I could have hit each other several rounds farther in lol.

          • 2 years ago

            @debateme13 lol I hate comments after a debate cause I feel like judges and voters can read them a. S influence outside of what happened but ok lreapond for the sake of argument if a book is written with "character authenticity" but doesn't sell and doesn't make charts is it a successful book?

          • 2 years ago

            @debateme13 Yep. I used to do card tournaments a lot (Magic and L5R etc) and often the two best players would match up in round one. Then the final comes, and folks are like, really this person is #2? No, they may well not be. #2 might have been knocked out long before along with #3-#8.

            My take on superiority would be along the lines of what creates better drama and what choices are most true to the nature of the established characters. You had some of that in your case but I'd have been on the other side. I think I'd have lost to either of you on the subject as I don't know it as well as you both do.

          • 2 years ago

            @ajgibson0418 Its a very good question. Are popularity and profit superior to critical success and cultural significance? Heck if I know! Harry Potter seems to fall squarely in the popular genre so I'm inclined to say that money and amusement trumps purely literary critique.

          • 2 years ago

            @sigfried I wish we had more time, I mean we used our time well imo, but we could have gone more into that question had we had more time than just the 15 mins, since that was where the debate was going :D.

        • 2 years ago

          Great Work Andrew!

          • 2 years ago

            This debate is more about whether bickering is healthy for a relationship or not. :grinning:

            • 2 years ago

              Great debate @debateme13 your a great competitor one of the more fun debates i have had on this site thanks judges for feedback!