Which side makes a better case?
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  • 2 years ago
    • 2 years ago

      @elomtet Thank you for the inisghtful judgment and critique.

      In hindsight, I do wish I'd spent more time talking about possible pageant reforms, and the reforms already happening. I'm not a fan of pageants, especially those featuring children, but being a person who loves competition, I'd hate to argue for taking it away from others on the grounds that they enjoy competing. That's the primary reason I picked up this topic.

  • 2 years ago
  • 2 years ago
    • 2 years ago

      @theshivatribe Thank you for your judgment and observations.

      Since this gives me the winning vote, I thought I'd share further thoughts on the subject for anyone intersted.

      I imagine both myself and my opponent found the same general problem when looking at sexual assault in pageants. There are anecdotal cases, but it is hard to find any hard statistics on the prevalence of the problem. Thus I think it was hard for my opponent to give us the scale of the harms, and hard for me to refute them.

      It's rational to think that pageants are an environment where this can happen, but I found that it is also something they take precautions for with chaperones and the like. But none of what my research turned up made for much of a citation I could work into these very short debates or were entirely conclusive that they work or don't work.

      Two days ago I knew next to nothing about pageants other than the general idea of them and that they are not popular among feminist groups. My overall take was that they are part of a much wider issue with beauty standards and ideals, but not a root cause of them. I was also impressed at what some of the winners had achieved for themselves which is why I decided to base my case around their right to find success in the way they choose.

      My notion of feminism is that it doesn't help to close doors to women. What we need to do is open all the doors that have been closed to them. I think when we can do that, then women can make the changes we need and lead the way. I was surprised to hear many pageant winners went on to politics, but the article about that did a good job showing how the skills for pageants transfer very well to the skills for politics in the TV age.

      I'm really not a fan of pageants myself. I find the idea of them a bit seedy and exploitive. But for me, that wasn't nearly enough reason to say others can't create or participate in them.

  • 2 years ago

    @jacbenj you are a stellar opponent, never showing a moment of weakness. It was a great pleasure to match wits with you here. I'd love to win, but it would be no shame to lose to you. Thanks for the debate!

  • 2 years ago

    that was fun thanks @sigfried!

    • 2 years ago

      Sigfried, we think you would win in a singing competition

    • 2 years ago

      well played 22:15

      • 2 years ago

        I'm no fan of beauty pageants, just like I'm no fan of NASCAR. But if people want to do it, it's their right to voluntarily participate in these events. NASCAR like beauty pageants can have negative results (i.e. death in NASCAR), but the winners of each benefit greatly. As long as it is voluntary, how dare you tell someone they can't do it. As far as your argument that less attractive women may develop lower self-esteem because of the beautiful women on stage in these pageants....two points: are you trying to shield less attractive women from more attractive women they might meet in everyday life, and if beauty pageants offend you because you're not as attractive, or older, or for any reason, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY FREE NOT TO WATCH THEM. BTW, I don't really get excited by beauty pageants, but I don't have to watch and I certainly don't want to ban them for contestants or viewers who like them.