Which side makes a better case?
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  • 2 years ago

    Resident Judges, this is it ... the final showdown! Please leave with a video reply to this comment with your assessment and winner selection

    • 2 years ago
    • 2 years ago
      • 2 years ago

        @marisa_noelle Thanks for the favorable judgment. I'm glad that someone with first-hand experience found my case persuasive.

        One tricky thing in debate is that pro can become very focused on Con's rebuttal. We want to clash and argue points and fear that one of them can prove fatal. And that can lead Pro to ignore their own case, something that I think hurt me here with other judges.

        I'm glad my early framing found footing. I probably didn't focus on that nearly enough later on and explain why it mattered for judging.

    • 2 years ago
      • 2 years ago

        @lupita Thanks for the thoughtful judgment. Based on the color bar under your name I'd thought you'd voted con, but watching I find you voted pro. Not sure if that is a system bug or you clicked con on the vote by accident.

        Whatever the case, thanks for the analysis and advice. This debate is proving very interesting in what reasons each judge and viewer chose to cast their decision.

      • 2 years ago

        @sigfried I did accidentally vote con but I keep trying to change it to Pro very sorry! Trying to figure it out!

      • 2 years ago

        @lupita we deliberately keep track of users original votes in their comments to track opinion switch

        As U can see your last comment has a black line (Pro) so you're good

      • 2 years ago

        @lupita Looks like you did, it's just that the bar on the post is set at the time you voted. This post has the black bar. Seems like once it's set it just stays that way. Good to know! Looking at the bar's I'd thought this was over. Looks like the last judge will decide the debate!

        How exciting. :)

    • 2 years ago
      • 2 years ago
        • 2 years ago

          @benmouse42 Wowsers! Thanks for the double video super judgment. Obviously, I'm darn happy to get the win. But beyond that, I'm grateful for the really in-depth look at the debate and its arguments.

          I think my case was hazy because I was trying not to run a straight policy debate but just focus on a moral "should". But Con pinned me down to one anyway by running a counter plan, so I just slid into advocating for a set percentage gratuity without much detail. I tried to avoid making a specific policy because I really wanted to avoid arguing about the workability of instituting an actual ban.

          I never got to win an event in debate back in Highschool or Colledge so this is pretty exciting for me. And it was really exciting and nail biting the way it all played out.

        • 2 years ago

          @sigfried I may have voted against you, but you're an awesome dude and a really deserving champion. Great job on a well deserved tournament victory :).

        • 2 years ago

          @sigfried I have tears coming to my eyes👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽. Ok just kidding. But Congrats to you. You deserve it!!!

        • 2 years ago

          @benmouse42 thanks for the in depth judgement mate, really appreciate you taking the time and effort to put in thought and judge this well.

          @sigfried, congratulations on your win man. If i'm gonna lose to anyone on this site, losing to you is an honor. Your an awesome guy and a great debater who deserved this championship. Nice work and good luck the next time we debate each other (hopefully in finals).

      • 2 years ago

        Hey @sigried @metant3
        I wish you both all the very best.

        • 2 years ago

          @sigfried if you win I want 15% of your winnings as the person who basically recommended you for RD and the first person you ever debated against.

        • 2 years ago

          @metant3 for the turnover at minute 15-16

          • 2 years ago

            Woo ha! All done. Stressful and exciting!

            @metant3 You rock sir, stellar debating, and poise!

            Thanks @qallout for the crazy cool service and the chance to compete. It's now my happy place!

            • 2 years ago

              @sigfried Freakonomics had an interesting one on it too that discussed several of your opening points. But my most important argument would be that it's a voluntary exchange and therefore mutually beneficial. Seinfeld has a comment on everything LoL
              I'll have to watch the rest and see how you guys did.

          • 2 years ago

            Citations (Note that not all of these were used in the debate - I read from them ad hoc during responses)

            Not based on service (The Atlantic 2016)
            “Research suggests (tipping) is not very fair: Tips have been found to be based just as much on servers’ race and age or the weather outside as on the quality of service.”

            Abolishing it works
            Owner of The Linkery in San Francisco.
            “In our second year, however, we tired of the tip system, and we eliminated tipping from our restaurant. We instead applied a straight 18% service charge to all dining-in checks, and refused to accept any further payment.
            Our service improved, our revenue went up, and both our business and our employees made more money.”

            Not based on service (The Economist 2015)
            “A study from 2000 found that differences in customer-service ratings accounted for only 1-5% of the variation in dining parties’ tips.”

            “Studies suggest that tips are larger when diners are presented with a good weather forecast, when the bill is presented on a tray embossed with a credit card insignia, when their waitress is blonde, and (as found in France) when she is wearing a red top.”

            “A recent study found that attractive servers earned $1,261 more in tips per year than unattractive ones. Worse, tipping is a vehicle for customers’ prejudices to infiltrate into pay. Gender and race influence the size of tips; black servers are tipped less, and a study in 2011 found that for anything less than “exceptional service”, women’s tips were smaller.”

            (Money 2014)
            “Studies indicate that diners tip more when a waitress wears a barrette, flower, or some other ornamentation in her hair, when the server repeats orders to the customer, and when the waiter introduces him or herself by name ($2 extra, on average). Another study showed that the quality of service generally has very little effect on how much the customer tips. And in yet another survey, various consumers admitted that they tipped more when the server was white, black, female, or attractive, among other categories.”

            Not working for a good wage on average (Money 2014)
            “The Wall Street Journal recently reported that nearly 15% of America's 2.4 million waitstaff live in poverty, compared to 7% of all workers.”

            Racist and Sexist tipping (Money 2014)
            “One recent study found that Hispanics tipped less at restaurants than whites after controlling for factors such as bill size and the customer's personal feelings about the quality of the service and food, while the conclusion in another survey declared "restaurant servers and their managers can expect below average tips from black customers regardless of their social class." Only 11% of Italians in a recent survey, meanwhile, said that they "always" tipped for service on vacation, compared with 60% of Americans.”

            “Men typically tip the babysitter for an average of $2.20, while the typical babysitter tip offered by women is $0, according to a PayScale survey.”

            Customer Profiling (The Conversation 2015)
            “For instance, a recent survey of over 1,000 restaurant servers across the US found that nearly 70% of servers perceived blacks as below-average tippers, while 50% perceived Hispanics as below-average tippers.

            In stark contrast, a mere 2% of servers perceived white customers to be below-average tippers.

            As a result, white customers are more likely to get better service in full-service US restaurants.”

            (Daily Mail 2013)
            “These beliefs led 38.5 per cent of the waiters - a large majority of whom were white - to admit that they adjusted the quality of their service based on the race of their customers.
            And 52.8 per cent of those surveyed said they had seen their colleagues discriminate against African-Americans.”

            Theft (Huffington Post 2017)
            “Red Robin Restaurants in Pennsylvania forked over $1.3 million dollars because they required servers to share tips with expediters in the kitchen. Rosa Mexicano, the upscale Mexican restaurant chain, was recently hit with a nationwide lawsuit by its servers claiming they were required to share tips with “floaters,” workers who conducted miscellaneous tasks around the restaurant without ever having customer contact. Similarly, the Department of Labor ordered Johnny Rocket’s to pay 55 servers over $570,000 for requiring servers to pool tips with cooks and dishwashers.”

            Harassment (Restaurant Opportunity Center Study 2014)
            “Over one-third of women reported being deliberately touched or pinched by customers, and over two-fifths received pressure for dates by customers in their workplace.”

            “Ninety percent of women reported being bothered by customer behaviors, including 40% who were highly bothered by these behaviors. “

            “Tipped workers experienced higher rates of harassment via media from customers than non-tipped workers. Tipped workers reported higher rates of inappropriate letters, ‘sexts’ or texts of a sexual nature, and photos from customers. Tipped workers also reported higher rates of harassing physical behaviors from customers, i

            • 2 years ago

              Out of curiosity, how much is spent on tipping per year? did either of you come across such a figure?

            • 2 years ago

              This was a very worthy final round. I'm glad you two made it this far. @sigfried as always, you are possibly the best presenter on this site, and one of the best rational thinkers as well. @metant3 If Sigfried is one of the most rational thinkers, you may be the most logical thinker on this site. Your case development is magnificent and you do a very good job framing every round to fit your side. That's something Ben Hewitt does as well and he's a two time tournament winner for a reason.

              In this debate, it ultimately came down to sexism vs. economic collapse. Con successfully proves that tips are an incredibly large part of the economy, and to remove them would create far-reaching economic impacts. His counterplan also all but cancels out any potential harms to waiters or others receiving tips. Con does an excellent job contrasting his world with the world the Pro creates, and every single time he does so I find myself completely agreeing with him that a world with reformed tipping is a better world than a world with abolished tipping.

              The remaining arguments for the Pro are that tipping contributes to sexism/racism. Con has a good turn on racism, which is that removing tipping doesn't remove racism, it just masks the racists, so I'll call racism a wash. Sexism though, is one that Pro argues and develops well. It does seem clear that when tipping is in place, some people will treat the host in a dehumanizing manner. But Con correctly points out that there are no statistics the Pro presented on this, and Pro didn't show this is a systemic problem. Let's be honest, if people are going to be sexist with a host, they're going to be sexist with the host. Maybe tipping slightly exacerbates that problem, but the increase in sexism would be very insignificant. I've tipped and seen friends tip and watched people in bars tip and the amount of times I've seen sexualized tipping is incredibly insignificant, and every single time I did see it, it came from someone who would have been a problem with or without the tip. So I do agree with Pro that there's probably a bit of an increase in sexism, but Pro never shows it to be statistically significant, nor do I think it actually is statistically significant in real life.

              So I have economic turmoil vs. an occasional drunk guy slipping a 20 in the waitresses bra. Me personally, I'll punch the asshole who does that, but I certainly won't uproot an entire economic system for it. So I vote Con.

              But that said, excellent final round, a very informative watch on both sides, and I'm so glad you both made it this far since you're both brilliant, well spoken, well reasoned debaters.

            • 2 years ago
              • 2 years ago

                @sigfried @metant3. Awesome round guys. Dropped you a video with my thoughts.

              • 2 years ago

                @lewisoflime Seems I needed fewer points, and more time selling them. Thanks for the feedback and judgment!

                The link between sexism is that when waiters are dependent on tips, they have to put up with this behavior or risk not getting paid. If they don't go along with the flirting, they don't get a good tip, and they don't make money. If gratuities are fixed, then they can speak up, tell the customer they will not stand for such treatment, and still, get paid. I was hoping the evidence that says that tipped employees suffer this more than non-tipped ones would also demonstrate that tipping intrinsically leads to more of this behavior.

                I'm not sure if I failed to explain this well enough, or it simply isn't convincing to you.

                I was hoping that the evidence saying that service quality only has a tiny impact on tip values would dismantle the idea that people really can make more money with better service. That argument seems to be again, either not landing or is not presented convincingly enough.

                The spread of my opening I think was a bad move in hindsight. There were so many arguments against tipping in the research I did, I wanted to really show the full range of problems with it as a practice. But tactically this seems to have been an error and may simply not suit my style of debate.

              • 2 years ago

                @sigfried I was surprised to see you spreading tbh. Imo your greatest strength is that you're a fantastic orator. But spreading makes it seem like you're choosing quantity over quality, and I think you're naturally better at providing quality.

                I found myself repeatedly feeling like Michael had said more in his 3 minutes than you had in yours, which was weird because you were talking faster and probably saying a lot more words, but I kind of lost the impact of those words compared to what I normally get from you.

                The major argument I did give you was the sexism one. I totally disagree with Joseph and Michael when they say you didn't prove that link. You absolutely did. I totally bought your argument that tipping creates an incentive for people to hold a sort of "ransom" over their server, and you had evidence for that too. I think the reason that argument worked for you was because you went back to your normal style and really developed it. I didn't think you proved it was a systemic problem, but that's a different issue. The argument itself was a good one.

                Point being, I agree with you that the spreading style didn't really seem to fit, mainly because it sort of detracts from your greatest strengths, and you're at your best when you play to those quality arguments and great delivery rather than just spreading.

              • 2 years ago

                @debateme13 I felt like the truth of the matter was that there are a litany of problems with tipping. Each has a modest scope and impact but together they make for a pretty damning look at the practice. Many I'd never really considered until I started researching for the debate.

                So in a sense, I went with what persuaded me, but it clearly didn't stick with most folks. Still, we learn more from that which doesn't work than that which does, so no regrets on that account.

            • 2 years ago

              What I Always think of when the idea of tipping come up LoL

              • 2 years ago

                For this 2-2- draw, the final judge will be last two-time QO tournament Champ @benmouse42

                The pressure is on :-)

                Good luck @sigfried and @metant3

                Ben, all yours..