@broodymcmoody @burnsstephen16 Great debate guys!Please note that the winner for this round will be determined as the best out of 3 i.e. Community + 2 Judges. Your confirmed judges so far: @citizenthom
@qallout_tournament when will our third judge pop in?
@change_my_mind We should have final decision by tomorrow! Busy week :-)
Good work @broodymcmoody and @burnsstephen16As an aside, I have not voted in the "popular vote" so as not to have my vote count twice, so I cannot see the results of that vote.
@citizenthom thank you so much for the feedback! it really means a lot for me improving as a debater.... I agree that I should not have spoken to the judge in that way and that i should have pointed out pros limiting of google to a search engine
Thanks for the judgment @citizenthom definitely some constructive feedback that I can build on! I would respectfully disagree that I ever limited the scope of Google's activities to its search engine; I think we both (at least implicitly) agreed that it was Google's core competency, and so I was just using it as a heuristic to highlight my point about substitutes and captive markets under monopolies; for example, when the debate shifted to discussing Android, my response was not 'but Google is only a search engine', but rather that Apple (e.g. iOS, Safari) has easily accessible substitutes. I'm new to this format but it also seems odd to me that I would need a citation for the claim that people can be addicted to Facebook any more than I would need a citation for the claim that people can be addicted to smoking or drinking. With that said, I really enjoyed the debate @burnsstephen16 and thanks again for your comments @citizenthom !
Congratulations @naburns11 and best of luck with the remaining rounds!
@theshivatribe thank you also for your judgment and your considered thoughts. I will just reiterate what I said towards the start of my speech; the 'winning analysis' for this debate cannot and should not be that Google has more finances or subsidiary companies. If it was, this debate would be entirely pointless, and the con would automatically win the motion. Instead, my tactic in this debate was to concede those claims (because they are incontrovertible), and instead prove that (a) Facebook has a vice-like grip on social media, which is greater than the level of control that Google has within its respective markets, and secondly - and most importantly - (b) that social media is a more important area to have control of than any other. If both those things are proved, than Facebook is, per the motion, a more powerful company. Critically, both judges have seemingly failed to engage with point (b), which requires you to weigh the comparative weights of social media against the areas of Google's operations. That inquiry requires more interrogation than just a simplistic tally. The only structural analysis proffered in the debate that would allow you to make that comparison is mine; firstly, my analysis concerning monopolies (and network effects) and substitutes proves that Facebook has more control over its areas of competence, and secondly, my analysis concerning the impacts of social media proves that social media control can be massively consequential; for comparison's sake, the Con, for example, never impacted his material concerning the fact that Google offers fibre and maps services. Again, even if he had impacted his material, that would still need to be weighed comparatively with the impacts that I presented to you (and you accept were proved), which has not been attempted by either judge above and beyond the rather superficial chain of logic that 'Facebook does X things, Google does Y things, Y is a bigger number than X and ergo Google is a more powerful company'. As I've said, as a matter of formal logic that only holds if X is less important than Y, and the interrogation must progress past pure figures. Otherwise, a company like Honda ($14.6 trillion revenue, $18.2 trillion assets in 2016) is trivially 'more powerful' than Google ($90 billion revenue, $167.5 billion assets), and Unilever (about 30 subsidiaries encompassing 400 brands) is 'more powerful' than Google (about 12 subsidiaries) also.
@broodymcmoody the thing is that Google controls more aspects of your life than Facebook... Google controls your searches, your browser, your phones OS, your home assistants, and the list goes on and on... Sure Facebook has a corner on one market but Google owns the rest of the room
@change_my_mind granted, but even to the extent that that is true, my point is that it doesn't prove that Google is a more powerful company in and of itself. What is the impact of the fact that Google has our search history buried in some database somewhere? How does that change the world? As I said, the people that use Chrome or Android are structurally not a captive market in the same way as Facebook users are; therefore, even if Google possesses some 'latent power' (in the sense that it could, but is very unlikely to, mobilise our search history against us), people can very easily stop going to www.google.com and can instead just go to www.bing.com. Similarly, what does it matter if I pick Google over Comcast for my fibre internet? How does that change my life? Does it have the same geopolitical impacts as Facebook? If Google were to diversify and suddenly enter the ice cream and chocolate markets, by your metric it would be a more powerful company; why? Does the world meaningfully change? Does my life meaningfully change? As not all markets are created equal, I think these are questions that need(ed) to be answered.
@broodymcmoody you keep equating Google to just a search engine... They own more than just your searches and you know that
@change_my_mind Yes, and once again, that is why I mentioned: Google's web browser, Google's operating system, and Google's internet service provision in my comment. And in my other comment. And in the debate. In any event, it is an EXAMPLE, and for you to say that I am ignoring everything else when I am clearly absolutely not doing that is a pure strawman
@change_my_mind Congrats on advancing to the next round! Please expect further details on your next debate on Sun/ Mon@broodymcmoody Hard luck on this one! We will open registrations for Dec' $5,000 Championship next week; in the meantime you can have some fun with our social debates by accepting one of the Open Challenges from our Resident Debaters:https://www.qallout.com/debate-challenges
Broody - I think your arguments are currently lying more on the state of the human condition (addiction to social media, gullibility in elections, our inability to switch etc.) ... also, you're reducing Google purely to its search capabilities. Leaving out adwords, display network, cloud tools, photos, captcha etc. Google's data collection is equivalent if not greater to that of Facebook.
@naburns11 Sorry, I definitely wasn't intending to do that, if I did! If you rewatch the debate I hope you can see that I was essentially never disputing the ability of Google to gather metadata (I think I even proffered AdSense as an example at one point), but that the combination of (1) unique non-metadata that only FB can collate such as personal conversations, and (2) the monopoly and captive market that FB has due to network effects, gives FB a unique power over our lives; things such as gullibility in elections, or the failure of G+, is only evidence of that. Anyway, hope you enjoyed it!
@qallout_tournament I watched this debate live from start to finish, but that did not unlock voting for the 6 minutes viewing. Is there a way to change this in future?
@liamm Same thing happened to me when I watched a previous debate. I think the way it's currently set up, if you are watching before the debaters click "start debate" it doesn't start your timer.
@debateme13 Ahh, interesting - thaknyou for letting me know.Either way I just let the debate play again on mute before I voted.
@debateme13 Update: I just watched the tail half of a debate, that I didn't watch from the start and I still didnt get voting rights.
@burnsstephen16 thanks to you and our technological overlords for the debate!
@broodymcmoody if you wanna have another conversation about this let me know and we can have a more relaxed debate
Verdict coming within the hour @broodymcmoody and @burnsstephen16 . I was halfway through the video when the kids came home. Stay tuned.