Explain your reasoning.
@vermontrevolutionary Well first off let me say that my argument is dependent upon someone living in a relatively free market society...Our place in life is primarily the culmination of our choices so for example: I can chose to go to college or not go to college. I can chose to study an area where there are lots of high paying jobs or study in an area where most jobs in that field are lower paying. I chose wether or not to start a family and how many kids to have/raise. I can chose to acquire no marketable skills at all which leaves me with minimum wage work. Also I have the choice to take risks for potential higher rewards but in turn I’m trading immediate and more guratentted financial security. So for example: I’m a musician and a songwriter. I have chosen to pursue the potential rewards of the music business but that also means I have chosen to accept the risk. This means I’m not currently living the high life financially. I have chosen a lower standard of living now in hopes to one day achieve a much higher standard of living in the future doing what I most love...that’s my argument in a nutshell.
@duffdastuff you've landed on quite the topic here. First off, I myself was born into what we would commonly refer to as "first world poverty". I had some clothes to wear each year, a roof over my head, my single parent had a car to drive (most of the time), and generally there was food to be eaten (though sometimes my single parent didn't eat so that I could)..Now one could argue that the choices of my parent "caused" the poverty I experienced, yet, that parent had a college education, a full time job and no real excessive debt to speak of. Yet, we never owned a car that was less than 15 years old because we couldn't afford it, we couldn't afford to buy a house, so we lived in a dumpy apartment that was falling down because that's what we could afford.. etc etc..Now, I myself when I turned 18, chose to attend college (entirely on the graces of student loans as financing it otherwise was impossible). And after about a year and a half into the degree I realized something, If I continued and finished my degree, I would have more than $140,000 +/- dollars that I now have to spend the next 30 years of my life paying back.If I want to ever purchase a home, that's roughly another $100,000 - $200,000 further I go into debt. Add on a newish vehicle, say $10,000 - $30,000, and then all of the other amenities that go with living here in America. So now I'm upwards of $250,000 - $350,000 in debt. Not sure how one views that as not poverty.Keep in mind that I went to college at 18 with virtually no money even after having had a job for several years. The money I had saved versus the amounts I've just laid out was peanuts.So here I am, I can make the choice to go forever into debt (which I argue is a form of poverty) or I can leave school and be slightly in debt and get a decent paying job and live with myself an 18 year old car, living in my mothers house, and trying to save what little money I can after paying rent, car insurance, heating, electricity, car maintenance, food, clothing, health insurance, paying my student loans, etc etc.. all the costs of living.. What do I end up with at the end of each month only paying bills at a job paying me $15/ hr?I have negative funds. WHAT?? How is this possible?I don't go out. I don't drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, drink coffee or have any hobbies that cost anything. How can I possibly not have any money?The reality is, the cost of living and paying my needs each and every month continuously puts me below what I make each month. Sure there are some months when I might save maybe a $1000, but then I need winter tires, an alignment, new tie rods, summer tires, maybe my timing belt needs replacing.. usually, it's car related and it sucks up all my extra cash. So I save what I can because I know it's going to happen. Why not buy a newer car with less problems? Ah yes, that old favorite argument from those in positions able to purchase new vehicles. Here's how that works, buy a new-er car, you are spending a down payment of more money than you likely have only to get a car with it's own problems. Which you then spend money fixing. So now you're out even more money. Why not buy a NEW car. Ah yes, let me just add a $400/ month extra payment on top of having no money, plus whatever the down payment is on the vehicle.. It's literally impossible.So here I am, reasonably educated, holding a $15/hr job full time saving what little pennies I can in hopes of one day being able to have $2000 to put into some sort of mutual fund to have retirement money with. That day has yet to come.Is poverty a choice? I think to say so comes from a position of not having started your life in poverty. Are there examples of those who do start in poverty and make it out of it? Of course. But using the exception as the rule is never a wise course of action.
@duffdastuff if you haven't seen this video, I really encourage you to view it. It's 4:12 long, and it will clearly and effectively put your argument to rest. https://youtu.be/awGctTODPBk
@vermontrevolutionary And, what about environment. If, for example, your daddy's rich and your mama's good-looking, your will start life with a huge advantage. Chances are very high that your parents are well-educated, and that means you have a leg up when you start kindergarten. You are more likely to have an advantage over poor kids, who don't speak English well because their parents weren't educated and didn't speak English well. As a rich kid, you also grow up with much higher expectations than the poor kid...you expect to have money...that's all you know. If you're from a poor family, you grow up not expecting to have money...because that's all you know. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Then when you graduate from college, your father's good friend who owns a high-profile business is much more likely to hire you than the poor kid who barely graduated from high school. You have the contacts as a rich kid built in by birth, and the poor kid would likely never get an interview for the job #1 because he couldn't afford to go to college, and #2 he didn't have an inside contact for the job like the rich kid. Of course, there are examples of rich kids who lose it all, and poor kids who grow up and have it all. But, your proposition included the word "primarily." The odds are overwhelmingly (primarily) in favor of the rich kid being rich all his life, and overwhelmingly (primarily) against the poor kid breaking thru to become rich. If wealth and riches were just a matter of personal choices, as suggested by Duffdastuff, the rich kid and the poor kid would have an equal chance at riches or poverty, n'est pas???? Do you really think that's true, Duffdastuff???
@vermontrevolutionary Well first off my argument takes into account that people can lose their job or fall on hard times. Poverty is not a choice in the short term but it is in the long term. If you live a long life in America and you die dirt poor I would argue that this is primarily due to your choices in life. To address the issue of being college educated and working $15 an hours jobs...I can’t remeber if you mentioned what your degree was in but that would be a major factor in your ability to find a job. What degree you get is a choice and it’s a choice where all the factors we’d to be taken into account (especially when debt is involved). Your living situation is a choice too. Maybe you need to get a few roommates for a period of time.
@dorothy8532 Well I’m not arguing that some people don’t have it easier or that we’re all equally advantaged. The argument is that everyone (absent some sort of serous disability mentally or physically) can find their way out of poverty in a free market society. When you talk about odds you’re arguing on the basis of what most people do. My argument is based upon what they can do and what they are capable of doing. Most people are capable of acquiring education and marketable skills. It’s not equally easy for everyone. Some people have higher IQs, some people are better looking, some people have rich parents. All of these are advantages that I don’t deny but you can either overcome your disadvantages or you can chose to view yourself as a victim of your circumstances. Mindset is everything. If you view yourself as a victim of circumstances you won’t strive to achieve. You can chose to say “woe is me” or you can chose to say “I’m going to make something of myself and overcome whatever obstacles life throws at me.”
@duffdastuff I dated a girl a few years back that obtained her doctorate degree in physical therapy. 7 years of college, got scholarships for more than half her schooling.. still more than $200,000 in debt.Makes like $50ish grand a year. Pays about $1800/month (with the intent of paying it off in ten years, doesn't include interest) in student loans. Thats more than 1/3rd what she makes (before taxes) going just to her student loans per year.Your remark overall is excessively close minded and victim blaming. You clearly have no understanding of living paycheck to paycheck and what is required to get out of that cycle.Is it a choice? If you don't need to sleep and can work 24/7 for 10 years straight.. then no, it's not a choice. For everyone that is human.. man.. get some empathy and real world understanding.
@vermontrevolutionary going $200,000 into debt for a career making 50 grand a year... Aren’t those choices? Victim blaming? Please lol
@duffdastuff your argument was that one could go to college, I'm explaining why the college argument is bullshit.
@vermontrevolutionary And I’m explaining that what you major in is a choice and has a lot to do with how much money you make...the argument is not..I can go to college, major in anything, and then magically make a bunch of money. Lol
@duffdastuff no the argument is that poverty is a choice and everyone can major in the high paying fields. How realistic for the masses.
@duffdastuff and that not only will they all major in those few high paying fields, but they will all get high paying jobs too. Really dude? Do you actually believe what you are saying?
@vermontrevolutionary No that’s not my argument. You’re presenting what’s most commonly referred to as a straw man.
@duffdastuff it's not a straw man. It's literally your argument. In case you forgot.. go ahead and scroll to the top of the page.
@duffdastuff you're presenting what is commonly referred to as enlightened ignorance.
@duffdastuff A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, "while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent". YOU CLEARLY PRESENTED THAT ARGUMENT.
@vermontrevolutionary No you misunderstood the argument and oversimplified it.
@duffdastuff "I can chose to study an area where there are lots of high paying jobs or study in an area where most jobs in that field are lower paying."Point out the straw man. Cuz I'm not seeing it.
@vermontrevolutionary According to studies you only have to do three simple things and you will have a 98% chance of escaping a life of poverty. Do you know what those three things are? Care to take a guess?
A) poverty is a choice, b) if you don't want to be in poverty you can CHOOSE to major in an area of high paying jobs... Oh Einstein, thank goodness you are here to fix this problem everyone else has been missing. All we need to do is apply your equation and voila, problem solved. No more Poverty.
@duffdastuff don't change your argument. It's a straw man. POINT IT OUT!
@vermontrevolutionary Well first off let’s deal with the question at hand...Do you people have a choice what they major in in college yes or no?
@duffdastuff No. You said it was a straw man. We're not moving forward until you point it out.
@vermontrevolutionary First off it’s a straw man because you’re simplifying it down to specific jobs at a specific point in time. You’re discounting the fact that not all jobs require a degree, That people can create their own opprtunities absent an employer, That people can have multiple skills that they take advantage of in the market place, etc...
@duffdastuff Your thread says that "Poverty is primarily a choice." Not sure How I can oversimplify that. Do you disagree that is what you wrote?I quoted you concerning choosing to major in a high paying field. Do you deny that is not what you wrote? How did I over simplify that?You don't get to just make accusations of things that aren't true to use as deflections because you don't like where the conversation is going and then brush it off because you were wrong. That's not how intelligent discussion works. You said something that wasn't true about my argument. Now you refuse to acknowledge it.
@duffdastuff And I am telling you that if your argument holds any credence whatsoever, then we can apply it to the masses and poverty will disappear off the face of the planet. But we both know that isn't a reality. So why are you pushing this bs narrative?
@vermontrevolutionary Yes emphasis on the word PRIMERILY Your critique of my argument seemed to be based on the fallacy that there’s a set amount of jobs or opportunities in the marketplace...
@vermontrevolutionary Studies have shown that there are only three things one must do in order to climb out of poverty in the United States (this being true 98% of the time) Do you want to know what those three things are?
@duffdastuff my critique of your argument centers on the reality that there are 330 million people in this country and 8 billion worldwide.. and only a fraction of them are going to be able to major in high paying jobs. It's simple economics 101. Supply and demand. If everyone majors in the high paying jobs, the value of that job diminishes and therefore the pay does as well. You are arguing a fraction of an understanding and attempting to present it as the solution to a MUCH larger composite set of complications.
@vermontrevolutionary Again, you seem to be functioning on the false assumption that there’s a set amount of jobs in the marketplace.Do want to know what the three things one must do in order to not be permanently poor with a 98% success rate??
@duffdastuff you seem to be operating in some utopian mindset where the laws of economics do not apply.
@duffdastuff your "3 things" may apply individually to a few people. The problem with your argument is that once you begin introducing it worldwide as a solution, you re-invent the problem due to the laws of economics.
@vermontrevolutionary My argument is predicated on there being a relatively free market in place so if a society doesn’t have a free market like a communist country then the rules won’t apply...let’s stick to America for now...So, Do you want to know the three things or not???because if you don’t then you clearly are only interested in your own presuppositions and I won’t waste my time with someone who doesn’t actually want to hear new information or opposing arguments.
@duffdastuff so the laws of economics do not apply in America?
@duffdastuff here's the thing, I don't doubt that whatever your "3 things" are that they might help an individual get out of poverty. But that isn't an answer. Poverty is not something everyone can escape. And to say that (as you said) it is a choice and that all they need to do is go get an education in a high demand field (which you also said and used as the basis for your defense of poverty being a choice) is a weak argument.If you think your answer will solve poverty, then I presume that you are smart enough to implement it here in America, and eliminate poverty altogether. However, somewhere deep down you recognize that you would never even come close to succeeding because a) reality is a thing, and b) the laws of economics eventually overwhelm any magical fix of the individual when applied en masse.
@vermontrevolutionary Here’s the thing...if 98%of people do X, Y, and Z and I gets them out of poverty then clearly poverty is primerily is dependent upon choices...but you don’t want to acknowledge that for some strange reason. What are these “rules of economics” you speak of btw
@duffdastuff I already explained that law of economics to you. It's called the law of supply and demand.
And if you don't understand it, then I encourage you to learn about it before you attempt to explain why your position of poverty being a choice isn't accurate and why your magical fix won't work.
@vermontrevolutionary and I explained to you that 98%of people who do X,Y, and Z will not be permantly poor in America...which backs up my theisis.
@vermontrevolutionary you didn’t give me any laws btw. I’ll ask again what are these laws? Give me the bullet points
@duffdastuff wrong. You seem to think your answer somehow lies outside the laws of the current labor market and system, and if it does, then I encourage you to explain how you plan to integrate it into this system and if it does not, then it won't work.
@duffdastuff your thesis is useless if it needs to operate within the confines of the American economic market and labor market.
@vermontrevolutionary you keep using the word “laws”...Can you lay out these laws in bullet point format?
@duffdastuff I explained it, if you can't find it, then that's your inability to read. If you don't understand it, then I'm not interested in continuing this conversation until you learn about the law of supply and demand, because it's like having a conversation with an idealistic 4 year old who doesn't understand how reality works.
@vermontrevolutionary you did not give me any laws so I’ll ask again...what are these laws?
@duffdastuff I did, and I'll quote it for you, "It's simple economics 101. Supply and Demand. If everyone majors in a the high paying jobs, then the value of that job diminishes and therefore the pay does as well."If you are incapable of extrapolating that from the law of supply and demand, then I worry about your ability understand anything. That (to quote a phrase you used in the beginning) "in a nutshell", is the law of supply and demand.
@duffdastuff but at this point you've changed your argument so many times and called me out for using a straw man when I did not.. that I think at this point you are just trolling.
@vermontrevolutionary you’re reverting again to the fallacy that there’s a fixed number of jobs in the economy or a fixed amount of money. You’re also discounting that a person can create their own opportune via self employment, starting new businesses, have multiple skills to create multiple streams of income etc...
@duffdastuff the fallacy? Based on what, that there are infinite resources, people, space, and need? Dude. Live in REALITY.
@duffdastuff you are giving examples of the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE and using it as the RULE. Which is absolutely mindless.
@duffdastuff let me ask you something. Do you not understand the law of supply and demand?
@vermontrevolutionary I understand the concept quite well. Do you not understand that there isn’t a fixed amount of money in a free market economy nor a fixed amount of jobs?
@duffdastuff you seem to be under the delusion that everyone can go get a high quality high target market degree and suddenly end up making lots of money if they so choose. However, that argument is FULL of cracks and will fall through with only a tenth of a fraction of the population attempting to follow your "words of wisdom".IF you think your methodology is foolproof, THEN you can apply it to all people and poverty will disappear. HOWEVER, (again) IF you understand the laws of supply and demand as you so claim, THEN you will quickly realize how much of a FALLACY your idealistic utopian concept is and how quickly it will fail.
@vermontrevolutionary My argument is that if you chose to do x,y, and Z you are almost guaranteed to not be permanlty poor in America...choices my friend...choices!
@vermontrevolutionary My argument isn’t based on a utopian concept at all. Socialism and communism are much more utopian ideas than free market capitalism.
@duffdastuff free market capitalism still has rules in which economics need to fit within. You seem to either completely negate this out of a desire not to want to accept it or disregard it as irrelevant simply because you do not understand that poverty is a masses issues. Poverty is not something that 40, 400, 4000, or even 400,000 people follow your method of freeing themselves from and it just magically disappears. If your method can be applied universally to all human beings, in which every one of them can rise to the ranks of wealth, then you would seem to contradict the rules of economics of that even in a free market. Supply and demand always wins and everybody cannot be wealthy even under America's system of capitalism. And sadly, as long as there is money, there will be poverty.Again, if your magic pill works sooooooo well, go ahead and implement it nationwide, I'll wait.I'm sure you'll make a ridiculous amount of money in the process.But between us, as "friends", we both know that isn't going to happen. So why continue this charade in pointlessness to showcase your illogical and irrational view of the world?
@duffdastuff let's use your train of thought as a thought experiment. We can say that playing NFL Pro Football is a choice and that anyone who works hard enough can become an NFL player. In addition to that matter, with that mindset, if everyone works hard enough then EVERYONE can become an NFL player.The reality is of course that the suggestion of such is absolutely crazy talk. But beyond that, in relation of similarity to the poverty discussion.. the recognition that everyone is the same and therefore can a) get into a highly sought money making degree and b) can pass the degree well enough to obtain one of those high paying jobs is just as equally crazy talk.You seem to think that somehow poverty is this mindset that people are in, where they choose to be poor because they don't do what you think they should.The reality of the REAL WORLD is that it's just like the NFL. Competition weeds out those who are not designed to fulfill that career choice and makes sure that those who are designed for it are the best and most qualified that they can be. Thus giving that field of HIGH PAYING the measure of value it has in order to be able to pay such wages.The moment you bring in 100 million or more people into targeted fields of jobs, the quality drops, the demand drops, the supply raises and the value reduces. Thus eliminating your endgoal and reinventing the cycle of poverty.So at the end of it, what have you accomplished?
@vermontrevolutionary Again, you continue to make fallacious arguments because I would never suggest that everyone is capable of playing in the NFL. For starters there is a set number of teams and positions in the NFL where as there isn’t a set number of jobs or money in a free market system. I’ve already explained this to you but for some reason you keep ignoring this point and making comparisons that are uneqivolent. Not once have you even shown any interest in knowing the three things btw...Which when done, you have a 98% chance of escaping poverty in America 1. Finish high school 2. Don’t have kids until you get married and 3. get a job....That’s all you have to do in order to not be permanently poor in America according to the Brookings Institute (which is not even a conservative institution btw). The data is pretty clear that poverty in a free market is primerily based on your own choices. For some reason you don’t want to acknowledge that. This is the reality and it’s been analyzed and tested out in reality. The only reason to deny this is to deny reality.
@vermontrevolutionary Let me ask you some questions to see if I can better grasp your understanding of the world and economics cause I feel like you’re arriving at some false conclusions so let’s see where we differ and where the problem is...1. Do you believe wealth and prosperity is created or do you believe there’s a set amount of money that is simply redistributed? Try to keep your answers short and concise if possible. 2. What is your antidote for getting out of poverty? Like let’s say you were writing a self help financial book...what advice would you give to people to help get them out of poverty or to avoid a life of poverty.
@duffdastuff I have completed all 3 of your "rules" and I am still in poverty. Guess it's bullshit, huh?
@duffdastuff I have a $15/hr job. I have no kids and I have some college. So explain to me where I have erred according to your magic solution?
@vermontrevolutionary first off you do understand how statistics work right? You keep using the word “magic”as if statistics are magical. LolSecondly, the statistic is looking at a person’s lifetime. You’re an incomplete statistic because you haven’t completed your life. What did you study in college out of curiosity?
@duffdastuff "98% chance of escaping poverty in America". That is virtually for all intents and purposes a "solution" to poverty, i.e. a magic fix. If it's 98% chance as you claim, then how could there possibly be soooooooo many people who fit within the parameters of the 3 rules you laid out and still be in poverty, as I am?And I chose not to finish my degree, because the opportunity to make money was extremely competitive in that field and required a multi-decade commitment to make any money at it, so I left. My current $15/hr job has room for growth and promotion likely to about $20/hr one day as long as I continue to remain employed.. however given the cost of living, making $20/hr will just put me over the poverty line.. assuming inflation doesn't keep up with my pay increases.If you think that making it out of poverty at the age of 40, working until you're 80, and then retiring with the hope of never getting sick because you couldn't save enough for that to happen isn't a form of poverty, then you clearly don't understand the term. The individual may have at one point in their lifetime crossed the threshold of not being in poverty, but overall, given your statistical analysis of their entire "lifetime", they will have always been impoverished.So for a little while they might just barely cross the poverty line and perhaps might even save some money.. but when it's all added up, said and done.. if you can't pay your medical bills, or end of life costs, and have to save virtually every penny during you good years just to do so.. that is still poverty.I challenge you to imagine it like this. I'm sure you've played or at least understand the game of monopoly. Imagine 8 players.. 1 of them is given $5000 at the beginning of the game, 3 are given $3000, 2 are given $1500, and 2 are given $100.At what point during the game do the players who were given $100 EVER have a chance of not only not losing what little they have, but earning enough to ever cross the line to semi-equality of their fellow game players?
@vermontrevolutionary making smart choices in life is not a magic fix. Lol you’re using the word magic improperly. Your disposition with your current job has everything to do with your choices. You didn’t tell me what you majored in but you chose that major then you chose to not complete that degree. What is your current job and what are your aspirations/goals for the future?
@duffdastuff first of all, you seem to think this is about me. It isn't. I'm not here to divulge my life or my life choices with or to you. And even if I do, it doesn't solve poverty. You have taken a very obscure statement from your initial post and whittled it down to focusing on me and my specific choices and goals. Which are irrelevant to the conversation.I told you a little bit about my life in order to get you to recognize that poverty is not a choice. I have aligned with your three rules and have continued to abide by them for the duration of my life this far.You have been unable to provide a legitimate argument to back up your initial very broad and blanket statement.Let me reclarify. Poverty is a masses issue. This is NOT about me. Prove your statement with legitimate, factual, and backed up science that verifies your statement that "poverty is primarily a choice" or realize that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. It's that simple.
@vermontrevolutionary Might I note that you’re the one that made it about you by bringing your own personal experiences into the debate. The Brookings Institute did the study on poverty in which they concluded from the DATA that you have a 98% likelihood of escaping poverty if you do those three things I mentioned...This is empirical data! It’s not just an opinion I pulled out of my hindquarters. Also I could prove my point to be true in your own personal experiences as well but you won’t answer all my questions apparently which are vital to my case.
@duffdastuff as I was the one that explained why I gave you examples of my life for the reason of helping you understand a real world example, I find it a bit sterotypical of you to make the statement you made, having my made it just prior.Furthermore, as I stated on numerous occasions, IF the 98% chance of escaping poverty was accurate, then poverty wouldn't exist.. or.. only 2% of the current poverty would exist. Clearly this is not the case. Empirical data or not, it is not practical data and therefore is irrelevant.And finally, poverty is once again for the LAST time, a MASSES issue. Fixing poverty for one, ten, one hundred or even a hundred thousand people does not solve poverty. Your case is not dependent on my life, therefore I do not need to answer your questions.. And therefore if you think it is, then you have a weak case. Overall, your position is one of ignorance and personal belief. Both of which are fundamentally flawed methods of debate.
@vermontrevolutionary the 98% probability comes with the caveat of you must first make certain choices.So empirical data is now irrelevant...Wow you really are a leftist aren’t you? LolLet me ask you a serious question? Do you really want to diminish poverty to its maximum potential? If so what are your solutions?
@duffdastuff in order to eliminate poverty you need to eliminate money. There will always be poverty if there is money. And empirical data? Shown where? Proven where. You have the physical EVIDVENCE PROVING 98% of people having ESCAPED POVERTY?? If that was really true, then it would be utilized across every inch of this planet and poverty would be a thing of the past.Stop using theoretical data to insinuate solutions that haven't occurred. What a waste of everyone's time.
@vermontrevolutionary governments can’t eliniante poverty. They can only put systems in place that facilitate wealth creation. So your solution is to eliminate money? Then what happens? I gave you the source for this data btw
@duffdastuff you gave me the source whereby 98% of people using your method "supposedly" escaped poverty, and I happen not to be in that 98%.. how odd. I wonder how many other people are in that 2% as well. I know a fair few, as does the U.S. Census Bureau reporting 45 million americans are below the poverty line... Odd how your 98% figure doesn't seem to align with that.Furthermore. Logic dictates that if it is as successful as you claim, then it would be implemented worldwide and again, poverty would be eliminated off the face of the planet. or at least America. That of course is not the case. So.. pound sand maybe?Your argument is INCREDIBLY weak.
@vermontrevolutionary why are you assuming it would be emplemented world wide? Most countries don’t have enough economic opportunity to facilitate the diminishmnst of poverty. Some countries go totally backwards economically based upon voting for socialists and communists...Look at Cuba and Venezuela. Look at how corrupt most governments are in general.Poverty is mostly eliminated in America by people who make those decisions I talked about. Again, there is actual data to back this up. Your biggest false assumption is that everyone is going to make those decisions that will lift them out of poverty. The fact of reality is that many people will make poor decisions. Many people will slack off, not study hard, not work hard, end up in jail etc...I’m not sure why you have failed to factor this into your thinking???
@duffdastuff you are completely unhinged if you think that your figure of 98% of people who follow your method of escaping poverty wouldn't become a nationally implemented method overnight.CLEARLY THAT HASN'T HAPPENED. SO EXPLAIN WHY NOT?
@vermontrevolutionary what do you mean by “nationally implemented method?” How do you “nationally emplement” good decision making?
@duffdastuff you don't get it. I am someone who has followed the rules to the letter. And I am still, at 28 years of age, in poverty. And SO MANY ARE THOSE just like me.Each of them also following your 3 ridiculous rules. You seem to want to disassociate reality from itself and claim that poverty can just be eliminated because you follow some steps that some organization made some statistics about. How about living in the real word where literally 45 million americas live below the poverty line.
@duffdastuff *implemented. You spelled it wrong twice.
@vermontrevolutionary the organization didn’t make the statistics. The statistics were observed and documented. And you’re only 28. You’re an incomplete statistic. And you didn’t answer my question...How do you “nationally implement” good decision making? Also I asked you some other questions about your decisions in life but you failed to answer my questions then you shifted the conversation away from you now you’re shifting it back on you so I’ll ask you again...What did you major in in college? I’ll also point out that you not finishing college was a CHOICE...It all comes back to choices.
@duffdastuff you've now spelled it wrong 3 times. Not really impressive considering you can't spell simple words
@vermontrevolutionary well if this was a spelling bee you’d win I suppose. Lol
@duffdastuff dude. I explained that I am not in your 98% statistic. I finished high school, I have no kids and I have a $15/ hr job. That's all you need to know about me.Get over asking your questions about me because I'm not telling you anymore.I'm an incomplete statistic? Really? You fail to remember anything I said and I really don't want to go back over it. You are literally to ignorant to talk to.
@vermontrevolutionary Ok So now you want to shift the debate back away from you again...pick a lane or at least don’t get aggravated when I ask you further questions about your choices. Do you not understand the fact that you’re an incomplete statistic? Do you not understand that you’re fairly young and have lots of life to live?
@vermontrevolutionary you’ve also for a third time failed to answer my question of how to implement a national policy or system that would get everyone to make good decisions?
@duffdastuff I'm an incomplete statistic, yes. However, I have to make enough money to compensate for when I retire, and I have to not spend that money during the time I'm making it, which means that my usable finances keep me in the poverty line, then when (if) i do ever retire, I'll be forced to use what little I was able to save.. once again keeping me in the poverty line.You are so ridiculous.. I am using myself as an example to showcase why your 98% claim is bogus and that's all I need to do. I don't need to sit here and give you my life story for it to be adequate enough to undermine your whole position. I meet your three rules. Accept it. Embrace it. MOVE ON. YOU DON'T NEED ANYTHING ELSE FROM ME.
@duffdastuff what your tiny mind seems unable to comprehend is that I am using myself as an EXAMPLE. there are 45 MILLION Americans just like me.And you are going to sit behind your computer and tell them the reason they are in poverty is because they don't follow your three rules. Well I hate to break it to you fella, but I follow your three rules, and as long as I keep to those three rules.. I will remain in poverty.
@vermontrevolutionary you are just one person btw. Maybe you’ll just be part of the 2% who never get out of poverty. That’s always a possibility. You being in poverty doesn’t make my claim bogus in the slightest. If you think it does then you don’t understand how statistics work.
@duffdastuff yes.. the 45 million americans in poverty adhere to that 2%. Your mind is amazing with numbers.
@vermontrevolutionary just like you in what sense? That they’re below the poverty line? Ok fine, but you don’t know why so you probably shouldn’t speak for them. You also don’t know who will climb out. 98% of them will find their way out of poverty if they follow those three rules. Yes! I know you want to ignore the fact that this stat has been shown to be true. You ignoring this doesn’t make it any less true. You very well could remain in poverty your whole life which would make you part of the 2%...Again this possibility doesn’t disprove or undermine my thesis.
@vermontrevolutionary Do you really not understand that the 45 million number (assuming its accurate) only represents the number of people CURRENTLY living in poverty? Many of those people will climb out. Telling me who’s in poverty now does not tell me who’s in poverty 10 or 20 years from now. This should be self evident.
@duffdastuff here's the deal man, you are entitled to believe whatever you want. But the fact that you sit behind your computer and tell 45 MILLION americans the reason they are impoverished is because they make bad choices.. that makes you a self-entitled, ignorant and arrogant prick who gets to call out these "statistics" and observations from on high.Who the hell do you think you are that you get to pass such a judgement and assumption about anyone, least of all 45 million people?I hope you are god for your sake, because man the karma that will come your way with this mindset will not be something I'd want to get hit with.
@duffdastuff and just a decent reminder.. go ahead and scroll up and see how many people agree with your thread statement. From what I can tell, you are the only one. That doesn't make me right and you wrong.. but it certainly gives an indication of how baseless your position is.
@vermontrevolutionary Now you’re just arguing on the basis of emotion and making up stuff I said...I said no such thing. I have no idea why somone is in poverty. I don’t claim to assert an overly simplistic explation as to why 40 million people do anything. That’s 40 million people with 40 million uniquely individual stories. All I know is good choices are the key to climbing out of poverty.
@duffdastuff you don't know anything about poverty and nor do you know how to get out of it. IF you did, IF ANYONE DID... IT wouldn't exist. There would exist a formula. A+B=C and voila. NO more Poverty. But that isn't the case. So why don't you shut your mouth and go have your little moment where you look in the mirror and think you are above the rest for knowing this AMAAAAZING knowledge.
@vermontrevolutionary Do I need to remind you that consensus doesn’t equate to truth? Hey did you know there’s a consensus amongst the Nazis that Jews are sub human?
@vermontrevolutionary So since you think you have a better answer I’ll ask you then...what’s the best antidote to get out of poverty?
@duffdastuff dude. Why do you repeat stuff I already pre-empt expecting you to say? What a waste of time?
@duffdastuff as I already told you (multiple times), as long as there is money, there will be poverty. You don't seem to want to accept that. But such is truth. Deal with it or don't, I'm done with this pointless circular conversation that goes nowhere and your ignorance just continues to SHINE through. Have fun being better and smarter than EVERYONE else.
@vermontrevolutionary Seriously if my solutions are bad then you must have better solutions, right?
@vermontrevolutionary So we get rid of money...then what? How does that solve anything?
@duffdastuff use your imagination friend, you clearly have one.
@vermontrevolutionary So if I imagine people getting out of poverty then it will come to fruition? Like Peter Pan? Oh I get it, you think this is Never Never Land. Lol Seriously though, how does getting rid of money get rid of poverty? You’ve yet to explain this.
@vermontrevolutionary Seriously, if you think my solutions are shit then I want to hear your solutions.
@duffdastuff what causes poverty? What causes wealth? What causes people to slave their lives away? Why do they slave their lives away? Did they always? As far back as human history goes, I certainly remember there always being a bank.. I wonder how they ever survived without money.. all those 55 million years and no money.. odd. Well, doesn't make sense to me..
@duffdastuff money is fictional ownership of goods naturally occurring on earth and selfishly controlled by a select few on earth. When your mind can see reality, then we can have this conversation, until then. Enjoy being the slave you are.
@vermontrevolutionary most people were dirt poor through most of human history. Also, before money there was the barter system. Money is simply a more sensible form of exchange. Would you prefer we go back to the barter system?
@duffdastuff you really don't get it do you? You are incapable of imagining anything that you haven't already been told exists. The barter system existed for a few thousand years sure, humanity has existed for tens of millions of years. The concept of Money has existed for maybe 15,000 years, though most texts say only about 7-8,000 years. Expand your mind and seek out ideas beyond the scope of that which you know, look beyond the borders of what your world has taught you and see what the true possibilities are.Stop confining yourself to plato's cave, whereby you chain yourself to the only reality you know.
@vermontrevolutionary So what’s your actual solution to poverty and explain how it works? Again, if what I’m saying is a bad solution then give me a better solution...
@duffdastuff dude. You seem to think in order for your position to be wrong, I have to give you an answer. That isn't how the world works. As I said before you are entitled to believe whatever you want. You clearly don't know very much.And just because you used the whole straw man argument against me incorrectly in the beginning I'm going to give you this."When someone online tells me I'm using a "strawman fallacy" or a "circular argument," I instantly assume that person is:1) Extremely new at arguing2) HilariousThe whole point of fallacies is to have extra tools to internally reference when debating someone. Instead of saying "Aha! I've detected a fallacy!" you're supposed to be keeping that shit to yourself until you can leverage your words against theirs. Simply screaming "fallacy" doesn't give you an edge any more than screaming "spin kick" makes you a better fighter. There's even a fallacy specifically about this. It's called the "fallacy fallacy," and it points out that pointing out fallacies as an end-all argument is in itself a fallacy, which I guess makes my linking to it a fallacy fallacy fallacy ... which gives you an idea of what a clown hole this all is. And speaking of repetitive garbage ..." - http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-essential-rules-arguing-twitter/
@duffdastuff if you say the sky is purple and I say, no that's wrong. I don't need to explain to you that it's actually clear and appears blue due to the sunlight being cast against the black background of space for it to be true. Your being wrong has nothing to do with my explanation (or lack thereof) of being right.
@vermontrevolutionary Well what you said earlier was a fallacy and I explained why already. Also I explained why your enecdotal experiences haven’t disproven my thesis. Nothing you have said has disproven my theisis and I’ve explained that ad nauseum. The reason I asked what is the best solution to getting out of poverty was because you reject my solutions. So if you reject my solutions it must mean you have better solutions. Isn’t that what we’re striving for? Solutions to problems?...If that’s not your goal then what is? My goal here is not to babble with strangers on the internet. My goal is to find solutions and help other people find solutions as well. If you have a better solution I genuinely want to hear about it and understand how it works.
@duffdastuff no, clearly your goal was to explain to those impoverished that they have chosen to be so and that clearly you are much smarter than all 45 million (Americans) who are.And it was not a strawman argument. So again, entitled to your own beliefs.
@vermontrevolutionary what you just said above is a total strawman because that’s a inaccurate misrepresentation of my views and everything I’ve expressed....oh the irony.
@duffdastuff and here's the deal. I don't like you. I think you are a prick. I find you to be self-Important, "all knowing", believing that you have the solution to a masses issue (when clearly you do not), I find you to be entitled, arrogant and downright obtuse. So given all that, why would I share any of my insights or answers with you?
@duffdastuff it's not a straw man. My statement above is an accurate representation of your insinuative viewpoints. Starting with your thread statement of "poverty is primarily a choice" to "if you follow these 3 steps 98% of impoverished people will escape poverty". That is not a straw man. That is deductive reasoning based directly on your stated positions. Dude. Do you even know what you're saying? Or do just type stuff, hit enter and then delete your memory?
@duffdastuff See this video (49 seconds) https://youtu.be/PSlvBuovLv8Like the video, you already know everything. Therefore I can tell you nothing.
@vermontrevolutionary Of course it’s a straw man because it isn’t accurate. You don’t see me telling you what your views are. Why don’t I do that? Because I prefer to listen and ask you what your views are. I don’t twist them around into something that is a straw man which you have done here. The fact that you can’t see this or acknowledge this just tells me you either don’t listen or you don’t think clearly. And you can call me a prick all you like but I’m not the one misrepresenting the other person’s views and name calling. Why would you share any thoughts or answers with me? Maybe because I’m actually willing to listen if you think you have better solutions. Unlike you my goal is not to call people names and provide zero solutions to problems.
@duffdastuff I don't need to share my insights with YOU in order to provide real world solutions. You are a cold-hearted motherfucker who doesn't seem to grasp the concept of reality. I will address the poverty issue on my own, but BE VERY CLEAR. In order to do so, I DO NOT need to share even the slightest hesitation of a thought of it with you. And the reason I won't is because you don't deserve to hear any of my insights, of which are vast, because of the entire back and forth you relentlessly argued for days.Go be the self entitled prick you are.
Without knowing your true intentions of this statement as your choice of your first debate thread.. I cannot make the following statement 100% accurately. But overall, your statement seems like a rather arrogant and ignorant thing to say.I can empathize playing the devil's advocate for seeing the other side of the proverbial coin when it comes to debate topics and wanting to learn how to debate something that you might not actually agree with; however, given your response to me asking you to explain your reasoning.. I don't think that was your intention here.Which leads me to think that you truly believe Poverty is a Choice..Which is almost akin to saying.. cancer is a choice.This isn't an identical translation from what you said, but I encourage you to watch this short clip (about 3 minutes) and understand the similiarties of the point being made in the clip and the statement you so brazenly made. https://youtu.be/nhGk6eF65Fo
In the longterm, yes, or at least, poverty is based largely on choices you make, most of the time.In the short term, no. Poverty is often a circumstance of your birth and the choices of others. There are many situations in which you can become poor through no fault of your own.
@sigfried So I’m not talking about children who are in poverty. They have no means to climb out. However my argument is related to adults and in the long term.
@duffdastuff You haven't even touched on the idea that millions of Americans are forced into bankruptcy through no fault of their own by getting sick. Not their choice. Furthermore, let me use my stepfather as an example. He graduated from and was Student Body President at Colorado School of Mines with a degree in Geology. He later got a Masters from Stanford...all that education thru the G.I. Bill. Excellent choices. He eventually got to upper management in companies like Goldfield ETC., and later became interim President of Dorchester Coal in Dallas when the previous president was killed in a car accident. But, the company chose someone else about a year later for the permanent president position. My stepfather was fired, apparently because the new President didn't want the former president sticking around. He was 58 years old...did everything right...had quite a few bucks. But, he never worked full-time again although he was certainly well-qualified and applied for plenty of lower paying jobs. Was it age bias - maybe, maybe not. He's now 87...and a few years ago he had to ask me for $20.00 so he could by some food for his cat. What bad choices did he make...getting old?
@dorothy8532 If you have good health insurance and a vibrant market for it, that should not happen.
@duffdastuff I don't even know what you're talking about here, but never mind. Let me see if we agree on something, and understand completely the terms of your original proposition. You're only saying, in America and most other western nations, you can eventually pull yourself out of poverty even if you came from a poor, uneducated family. If so, I can basically agree with that. But, from what I've read in the above posts, you're not suggesting that same person who pulled himself out of poverty, has a decent shot (or even close to the same chance as a rich kid has) at ever becoming rich. Do I read you correctly???
Because, I and maybe some other people could have interpreted your original proposition as suggesting...if you're poor...if you're not rich, it's "primarily" you own damn fault. And, if you are rich, it's ONLY because you earned it! If so, and I don't think that's what you're saying...I couldn't disagree more.
@dorothy8532 of course those who start off rich have an easier time in life economically.
@dorothy8532 Plus I’m not even talking about people becoming really rich...I’m talking about people not being in poverty.
@duffdastuff Ok...I think you and I agree more than we disagree. I look back to the original response from Vermontrevolutionary...who said something to the effect..."Explain your reasoning." A lot could be read into your original post...we have defined what you meant...and also what I meant...and we have found some common ground by talking (writing). That's great...Yes I would be willing to debate on video. I'm probably older than you, so I'm a little concerned about my technical abilities to do that.
@dorothy8532 well we may not need to debate the issue if we mostly agree
@duffdastuff that wasn't the response I was hoping for, but whatever you think?
@dorothy8532 well do we mostly agree or not? Cause if we do I don’t see the point in a debate where both parties just agree with each other. Lol Maybe there’s something else you’d like to debate though where we disagree.
@dorothy8532 Of course not everyone who’s rich has earned it. There are people with trust funds who never work a day in their life. I’d be an idiot if I wasn’t aware of that. Lol
If anyone wants to do a video debate on this subject let me know...
@duffdastuff You can re-create this to be a H2H video debate and share your debate link on our Facebook Head-2-Head Group and another user will take you on:https://www.facebook.com/groups/QallOutH2H/
Poverty is a result of war and greed.
@blitzgrutel Not in a free market based society!
@duffdastuff ya but it's sadly not what's happening hehe
@blitzgrutel well if your conclusion is we have too much government interference in the market then we can agree on that point.We are still predominantly a free market society though.
@duffdastuff ya if we get outside society structure, I totally agree with you. Life is sharing and that is something free!
No. It isn't. And you are a terrible person for saying this. If you have children, the state should take them awya from you so that you cna't poison their minds with your socipathic, immoral, philiosophy.
@arkle In a free market poverty is escapable and it has everything to do with you choices. There’s lots of information and study that proves this. I could provide you with some information and rational arguments but something tells me you’ll just dismiss them and call me a terrible person. Lol
@duffdastuff "In a free market poverty is escapable"Liar."and it has everything to do with you choices."Still lying."There’s lots of information and study that proves this."Big fat lie."I could provide you with some information and rational arguments but something tells me you’ll just dismiss them and call me a terrible person. Lol"Because you are a terrible person, and also a liar, since actually peer reviewed studies show the opposaite of what you claim. See, just claiming to be rational doesn't make you rational. I've yet to meet a Right Wing capialist who has figured this out. Apparently you think rationality works like magic; just say the right words and it becomes true.http://economy.money.cnn.com/2013/11/13/making-it-into-the-middle-class/https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rich-kids-stay-rich-poor-kids-stay-poor/http://www.newsweek.com/why-rich-stay-rich-and-poor-stay-poor-363611http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/the-long-shadow-poverty-baltimore-poor-children/http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/07/23/study-children-born-poverty-extremely-likely-stay-poor-adults/http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/born-poor-stay-poor-the-scandal-of-social-immobility-7771336.htmlhttps://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2016/02/19/a-college-degree-is-worth-less-if-you-are-raised-poor/https://ieet.org/index.php/IEET2/more/mason20160926But I imagine that you'll just dismiss my information and call me a cuck or some other typical Right Wing insult.
@arkle it’s quite ironic that you sourced The Brookings Institute above since they did a study that concluded that if you do these three simple things you have a 98% probability of escaping poverty...1.finish high school. 2. Don’t have kids out of wedlock and 3. Maintain some sort of employment. Btw almost none of your sources above seriously deals with the issue of choices. FYI I’m not talking about children in poverty. I’m talking about adults who end up in poverty. Most of the time this has to do with peoples choices. You chose to learn a skill or not. You chose to get educated or not. You chose to commit crimes or not. Etc..etc...
@arkle I’m curious btw how you’d answer this question...what are the causes of poverty and how does a person or a society rise out of poverty?
@duffdastuff "I’m talkong[sic] about adults who end up in poverty. Most of the time this has to do with peoples choices. "No. It doesn't. This is a lie. You are a liar. Kids born into poverty are most likely going to be in poverty as adults as well, then they have to deal with assholes like you claiming they chose that life."You chose to learn a skill or not."If you can afford education, that is."You chose to get educated or not."See above."You chose to commit crimes or not."Dumbass, when the choices are "starve" or "steal that candybar," that's not really a choice at all. If you were a human being capable of empathy you might understand this.
@arkle you’re showing your inability to reason clearly. Just because a person is likely to end up poor based upon their childhood circumstances doesn’t mean their choices didn’t play a major role in where they ended up as an adult.High school education is available for free (essentially) for every American child and scholarships are available for college. Also there are student loans. Not to mention trade school. And people can learn many skills simply by reading books and watching videos...All of which are available at public libraries for free. Starve or steal? How bout get a job? How bout instead of stealing you go to a shelter or church and ask for help? To argue that stealing isnt a choice is both absurd and dangerous. I have plenty of empathy thank you very much.
@duffdastuff "you’re showing your inability to reason clearly."And this whole thread you've shown your detachment from the realities of millions of people."Just because a person is likely to end up poor based upon their childhood circumstances doesn’t mea; their choices didn’t play a major role. "You're operating under the false premise that people in poverty have a lot of choices. You are not only out of touch, you are so ignorant you think your being out of touch somehow makes you more qualified to speka on this issue. It doens't. It makes you an idiot. You are a walking avatar of the Dunning-Krueger effect."High school education is available for free (essentially) for every American child and scholarships are available for college. "True. Except many of those, thanks to a lack of proper funding, don't have proper insulation or air conditioning so kids are trying to do their work in sweltering hot or freezing cold, depending on where they are and the time of year. Also , many of these kids go hungry beucase budget cuts don't allow for those schools to provide proper food that students need. And also a lot of textbooks are either out of date, or worse are pushing a Conservative agenda (referring to slaves as migrant workers, claiming the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, praising the Japanese internemtn camps during WWII, etc.).And not everyone can get a scholarship of course, but that's reality, and reality has a well known Liberal bias."Also there are student loans."And here you are further proving how out of touch you are. I guess you never heard about the whole student loan crises we're going through. I mean, it's only been common knowledge for years, so why would you know? People getting student laons, then not being able to find work that pays enough for them to pay off those loans, predatory lenders, etc. These are things you would be aware if you were just a fraction as smart as you think you are."Not to mention trade school. And people can learn many skills simply by reading books and watching videos. "Sure. But how many of them can get jobs in those fields? I mean, I know you are a very stupid person, easily one of the stupidest people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter on this site but even you must've noticed that there aren't very many good paying jobs out there anymore. Oh, who am I kidding, of course you didn't. If you did, you wouldn't say stupid things like "poverty is a choice.""Starve or steal? How bout get a job."Jobs don't grow on trees you f***ing idiot. When you say "get ajob": like that, what you are saying is yiou have NO F***ING CLUE what life in America is right now."How bout instead of stealing you go to a shelter or church and ask for help."Because shelters are underfunded thanks to the kind of worthless politicians shitlords like you vote for cut the budget so they can give tax breaks to Paris Hilton."To argue that stealing isnt a choice is both absurd and dangerous. "To argue that poverty is a choice is absurd and dangerous."I have plenty of empathy thank you very much."Bullshit. If you did, you'd have empathy for people in poverty instead of lying a bout them.
@arkle The great thing about a free market is you don’t have to rely on an employer to make money. You just have to have a skill and motivation. There are a million ways to make money in a free market. Go knock on peoples doors and ask them if you can do yard work if you have to. I haven’t lied about anybody. Also you haven’t answered the most important question on this matter which is...What are the primary causes of poverty and how does a person or society rise out of poverty?
@duffdastuff "The great thing about a free market is you don’t have to rely on an employer to make money.'Shame we don't actually have a free market. If we did, a lot of industries would've faded already, but instead they get subsidies from the government. Not poor people, who need and would spend that money, but billionaire oil barons. Free market my ass."You just have to have a skill and motivation."And to have rich parents whose condom broke one night..."I haven’t lied about anybody. "Yes you have. You keep saying poverty is a choice. And for most people it isn't. Erego, you are a liar. You're also very stupid, so I can see why you would have trouble grasping "saying things that aren't true" = "lie.""Also you haven’t answered the most important question on this matter which is...What are the primary causes of poverty and how does a person or society rise out of poverty?"Seeing as so much of what you say is based on falsehoods, there's no point in answering your question as you will just dismiss them out of hand for not agreeing with your bullshit assertions. This isn't my first rodeo. I've heard your brand of bullshit before. And every dumb asshole who spews the same garbage that comes out of that swer you call a mouth thinks they're laying some previously uncovered truth on me. What they are really doing, what you are doing, is just repeating the same nonsense about "free markets" and "you just have to work harD" and all that other crap that useless subhuman cokcsores like you take a t aface beuicase you are too goddamned stupid to look beyond the surface level of anything more complex than a game of Go Fish that capitalists have been shoving down our throats since the Robber Barons who cuased the Great Depression.Your bullshit lies have been wrong for a hundred years, but you still beleive them. This is why I think so little of you. If you announced tomorrow you had incurable genital cancer, I'd actually be inclined to finally believe in a just God.
@arkle the only pure free market would be in an anarchy state. Just because we don’t have a pure free market doesn’t mean you don’t have the freedom to go out and make money in many different ways in the market place. Like I said, go knock on doors and ask people if they need any yard work or home repair work done if you have to. The only bullshit here are your bullshit excuses. As a side note...you sound like a miserable person. It doesn’t surprise me at all that you don’t believe in God because you’re such an angry hateful person...but that’s a separate issue.