@debateme13 Anytime you do a debate with religious implications, I have to watch.
@change_my_mind now you're seeing what it's like to debate @debateme13. I swear he has the "Cliff Notes" version of the Bible. At least his camera is not working which already gives this debate a plus.
Another example of “if you don’t start with a belief that Christianity is true, you can’t get to such a belief. But if you start with the belief Christianity is true you can come up with reasons why it might be”
As a gnostic atheist this is what I heard “I believe Christianity is true because I read about some guy doing the literally impossible, ignored all the other reasonable explanations for what might have happened, and read about some more people who died for an cause that if it was false was totally stupid, and since no one ever dies for stupid causes, how could anything claimed about Jesus be false?”
@madmike not my argument and also this wasn't a hard core debate man.. it was just a conversation for me to broaden my horizons... Chill a lil bit
@change_my_mind Nothing personal, just an observation. You said your personal belief that Christianity is true is based upon the "fact" of the resurrection. Resurrection in humans is literally impossible. When I use literally here, I don't mean mostly impossible. I mean CAN NOT HAPPEN. Even if you want to claim that the resurrection was a miracle, at best it is only the story of a miracle. It's not limited to you as it is a common defense of Christianity, but it always funny to me to hear it because it seems completely irrational. And most Christians are rational people when it comes to other beliefs.
@madmike yes resurrection is impossible for humans... Jesus was also God that's the whole point
@change_my_mind That's nonsense. Gods cannot die, so they cannot resurrect. You can't have it both ways. The argument from resurrection is nonsensical.
@madmike the argument is that he is fully man and fully God... So as a man yes he could absolutely die.. but as God he has the power to resurrect
@change_my_mind and that seems like a reasonable argument to you? That he is of two complete natures?
@madmike well if he is God and is capable of doing things that we are incapable of understanding.. yes it seems reasonable that the infinite God of the universe could take on human form and be fully God and fully man
@change_my_mind That seems to be a big IF. Do you think what you just describe is more likely to be the case than, for instance, Jesus was a liar or a crazy person, and numerous people got caught up in his lies?
@madmike that is a possible explanation given CS Lewis' liar lunatic or lord... If you wanna talk about it we can do another head to head... Otherwise I'm not a fan of comment wars.. I would encourage you to read lewis' mere Christianity though
@change_my_mind I'd love to. Maybe one evening this weekend?
Assuming of course that the last debate didn't change your mind
@madmike pm me and we can work out a time!
@madmike it's not that nobody dies for stupid causes, it's that nobody is stupid enough to die for a cause they know to be false. The disciples cannot be compared to some misguided Muslims or something. They knew Jesus personally, and they claimed to see him risen. The problem arises when people treat the "story" differently than any other ancient writing just because it happens to be compiled in a book called the Bible which is understood as a religious book. We know history from ancient writings. Not to mention that the main parts of the story(existence, miracles, crucifixion, sightings after death) are mentioned by extra-biblical sources. And yes, rising from the dead is "impossible", but if you approach the subject with the premise of naturalism then you already have your answer.
@cotter //The disciples cannot be compared to some misguided Muslims or something.//Why not? Is it more likely these people were mistaken Zealots or that a miracle occurred?
@madmike But Jesus was a man. And man can certainly die. Jesus did die; he was killed. That is how he was able to resurrect. Yes, the trinity reaches that Jesus and God are the same, however you have to understand the fact that they are also different. God is an eternal being, he cannot die, like you said. However Jesus was a human form of God. A man. An incarnation, in a way. He was a spiritually perfect being, of course, but still susceptible to man's suffering.
@joanna_clark let me get this straight. They are exactly the same, but also different. Jesus was a man, and died, but also didn’t die. But after he died, he was God again, though he never stopped being God, and ressurected as a man again. But also was still a God. Does that about sum it up? Still sounds a bit nonsensical to me.
@madmike Well to be fair, if we are talking about an infinite being, he also has infinite power, so he can do whatever he wants. But for that infinite being to choose to make humans so flawed that they will eat the apple he put in the garden, because of the Snake he put in the garden, who is the demon he created for absolutely no reason, and then because humans are fallen, they need to be saved, is a pretty ridiculous narrative.Then in order to save them, God needs to kill himself to save them. Which is just a terrible way to design this. Why did he set it up so that he would need to kill himself to fix his own flawed design in the first place? If God is who the Christian's say he is, he is an absolutely idiotic designer.Or more likely, we don't actually understand the mind of an infinite being, so Christian's are dead wrong about what God actually is, and the proper answer is "we don't know" if there is a God, but that it's possible, just unproven.
@madmike Think about it as an analogy. Water, ice and vapour/steam. All different, but are all forms of water. Just like God the father, the son and the spirit. They're all different but one in the same. It takes a minute to get your head around, however it makes perfect sense. God is an eternal, perfect, loving being, who is able of anything, including sending his son to earth to offer humanity salvation. If that's possible, then so is the resurrection. The resurrection was possible because he was Jesus Christ, the son of God. That's what made it all the more special. Obviously it's impossible with any other man, but Jesus wasn't just any other man; he was God's son. His resurrection was vital to fulfill the prophecy: that there would be a sacrifice for all mankind so that salvation was possible. What he did for us he did through love, and we are not to question God's brilliance just because you deem the story nonsensical and unbelievable. The fact that people view the story this way just proves how amazing it is as it really happened!
@joanna_clark Let’s take your own analogy. No single molecule of water can be both ice and steam at the same time. So it would be impossible for God to be both God and Man at the same time, just like it is impossible for a molecule of water to be both in steam and ice at the same time. This is call Modalism and is considered a hearsay by most Christian churches. Let’s take your other point. “God’s Son”. Obviously a father and son aren’t the same entity. Every son cantains part of all parents. In this case Mary was the Mother. Mary was human, and humans can only give birth to humans. So as it was necessary for Mary to give birth to Jesus, Jesus must be human. Is it more likely that Jesus’s father was also human or that his father was a God who impregnated Mary with himself so he could be born and sacrificed to himself to save the rest of the humans from his own wrath?
@debateme13 You're getting your facts all wrong. God didn't create flawed beings, he created perfect beings. It clearly states that in the bible. Mankind made itself flawed. The same with the devil. God created an angel named Lucifer, then that angel tried to overthrow God, which resulted in his casting down from heaven. He needed to die (which isn't the same as killing yourself, may I add) in order to offer humanity a way out; salvation. We not only do not deserve this but should also be eternally grateful and stop blaming God for our mistakes!! We killed him. When I say we, I mean the people who came before us, but those people still represent mankind's sin. People now are no different. People still kill. People still don't believe. It would be exactly the same turnout if Jesus was here now. There's no denying that God knows much more than we do, like you said, however he spoke to many people and had them write down his word. These were the prophets and that is how the bible came about. The bible reflects God's mind. Christians cannot be 'dead wrong' about what God is when it's written in writing.
@madmike What are you mean why not? Muslims never claimed to be witnesses to a risen Muhammad. It's likely that they were zealous about a miracle they claimed to have witnessed.
@joanna_clark that’s incredibly circular reasoning. You know the bible is true because it’s the mind of God, and you know the mind of God because it’s written down for you... in the bible, which you know is true because it’s the mind of God...The only reason you believe one half is because you believe the other half. But if you had not started with faith, there’s no objective way you would have come to those conclusions. Just think about it logically, yes God created Lucifer, but why the hell did he do that? God knew with his infinite foresight that Lucifer was going to fight him, steal half his angels, and tempt all his creation. So why make Lucifer!? That’s absolutely terrible design.God knew Adam and Eve would eat the apple if he put it in the garden. So why put it in the garden in the first place? God knew he would have to kill himself to save humans if he made them poorly enough that they would fall, so why make them so poorly in the first place?It does not add up. At all. Any objective observer would see this. The only way one could say these things are proven is if one is being willfully ignorant because one started with a predisposition toward a certain conclusion, and was not willing to actually test that hypothesis against that which we can verify.
@madmike You're missing the point. God is an infinite being, which gives him infinite power. He is capable of so much more than we could ever imagine. You can argue that what God has done is nonsensical or even impossible but that doesn't change the fact that he did it. He is bigger than man and can do anything he pleases. It's supposed to shock us and place the question on our minds of 'Really? He really did that?', it's supposed to make us wonder how he could ever obtain so much power. But the point isn't how he did that, it's simply: that he did. We have no power over him and we cannot twist his word and twist his image so that it suits us. If we are not convinced by the bible, that is no ones fault but our own. If we have a chance to accept God and we knowingly reject, then why should God offer us a way out after our time is up? He's given us our whole lives to come before him and accept him, which is what you'd call salvation. He does not accept you because you're deserving, he accepts you into his kingdom because you've acknowledged who he is and you have faith in Jesus. He does not condemn us. We condemn ourselves. If he was to reveal himself and prove himself to everyone right this second, that would defeat the object of faith. Not to forget that he already revealed himself in the form of Jesus, he performed breathtaking miracles, yet he was still put to death. People will always come up with another excuse to not follow God, and there's no one else to blame for that besides themselves.
@joanna_clark I apologize if I am missing the point. Maybe you could clarify a few points or we could debate these points this evening. 1. God created mankind flawless, mankind flawed itself. I find this irrational, and let me explain why in an analogy. I build a perfect machine. Intrinsic to the machine is a trait that when turned on the machine is as likely as not to damage itself and work inefficiently, even to the point of catching on fire and buring forever. Is the machine responsible for this outcome or the designer that created an imperfectly designed machine in the first place? 2. The trinity. The analogy YOU provided demonstrates how belief in the trinity is irreconcilable with the treachings of Christianity. Care to try again? 3. Clearly God, even if all powerful, is not capable of doing the IMPOSSIBLE. God cannot create a stone so heavy God cannot lift it. I am not making the argument that what Jesus/God has done is just impossible for man, but impossible in principle.
@joanna_clark just read your updated comment, so I’d like to add one further point for you to clarify or that we can debate. “God does not condemn us, we condemn ourselves.” We condemn ourselves to what? In the eyes of whom? To a hell God created in order for the condemned to be punished for making the only rational decision based on the evidence, that of not believing just an entity such as described in the bible could exist?
@debateme13 I understand your perspective completely, I've had the same questions growing up, however I've had these questions answered many times by my family, both at home and at church, but most importantly, by God. I'm not sure whether you have faith in God or not, but from the way you speak you must believe in God somewhat, otherwise why would you question his design if ultimately it isn't real; it wouldn't bother you. You can't question God motives when you question his existence, it just doesn't work. Anyway, let me talk you through the reasoning that has been taught to me. God knows past present and future, undoubtedly. He made this universe and has seen beginning from end. You ask yourself why the hell he created man with flaws, but he did not. That's the main point here that you have to keep on grasping. In the beginning, everything was perfect. But every being that he created, he gave choice, too. If you're not giving someone the choice, you're not giving them free will, which is like making them conform to your wishes. I think we can both agree that doing this is incredibly unfair. He gave his angels and man choice, but you have to understand that that's not what caused the corruption and the fall. It was always the choice that was made! Satan didn't have to do what he did, but thats not the point. The point is, he did it. The fruit was put in that garden by God, yes, and he instructed both Adam and Eve to not eat it, yet that's exactly what they did. You can ask yourself why and the answer will always be: because they chose to. Satan is a representation of all evil and that is what tempted the two of them. He tempted, but he did not make them do anything. It all revolves around free will. Lucifer chose wrong, along with all those other angels, and also along with man. You're wondering why God gave them the ability to choose wrong, but that's a stupid argument. Why give someone free will? Why give someone the opportunity to choose for themselves? I think that's a pretty easy answer. Because its simply the right thing to do. If you have children or plan to have them, of course you don't want them to do anything wrong, but you can't take away their choice altogether. At some point, they're going to make a mistake. God knew this, but he didn't make it happen.
@madmike According to Matthew 25, hell was not created "in order for the condemned to be punished". It was created for the devil and his angels. And you weren't sent there for making a "rational decision based on the evidence", you were sent there for not feeding the hungry and thirsty, not clothing the naked, not caring for the sick etc.
@debateme13 do you have enough badges by your name? #qalloutboyscout
@change_my_mind haha well I need to change that 2nd to a 1st eventually :D.
@debateme13 then you're an eagle scout debater
I know PRO got stumped with CON's questions about how God did things at around 20 minutes, and maybe I'm crazy, but I have never found those types of arguments convincing...At any rate, the OT is so old and so hard to verify, I think it's more productive talking about the NT where there is a bit more certaintly.
@cotter Well, it's not about what is "convincing" it's about what is proven. If something is not proven, then it's false to call it "truth". There is no conclusive proof that the claims of Christianity are truth, just that they're possible.And I have 30 pages of evidence from both the old and new testament I compiled that I would provide (if I had a 10 hour debate to fit them into).
@debateme13 There's no proof for probably 99% of the claims we believe about ancient history. Basically all we have to go off today is ancient writings.
What would you call someone that has seen jesus’s Dead body and still believes?
@madmike hey man I admitted that if they found Christ's bones I'd renounce my faith
@change_my_mind I know. My point is that you would renounce your faith, but those that saw him crucified and saw his dead body didn’t renounce theirs. Why would they continue to believe unless they were zealots? And would zealots manipulate the narrative in order to win more believers?
@madmike They basically did though. Peter denounced Jesus 3 times before he was even crucified. Basically all the disciples abandoned Jesus and were in hiding until after the resurrection.
@madmike well for 3 days they simply mourned... Then boom a huge amount claimed to have seen Jesus after death and we have 500 people be put to death proclaiming that and countless more to survive claiming that... Seems like a fair piece of evidence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNGqrzkFp_4 Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus || Muslim Version || Spoken Word || Response
You should watch video - "Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus || Muslim Version || Spoken Word || Response" on youtube
Jesus (peace be upon him) was the prophet of God. He never asked people to worship him. Infact he asked people to follow him and worship God.
@fightingforrights why the peace be upon him? Are you a Muslim?
@fightingforrights jesus actually made the claim that he was God and was the only way to salvation... I'd say that he is making the claim that he is more than a prophet