No because you can forgive the dead...
Forgiveness is part of the self-healing process. It is different from forgetting and also different from rationalizing (morally justifying the action). Forgiveness is to acknowledge a wrong and letting go of any anger or hostility toward that person/thing. It's purpose is not to affect the wrongdoer but rather the victim. There are known psychological benefits of letting go of anger and hatred. It appears to be something related to the object but actually forgiveness is for the subject.
@bronsonkaahui I totally agree. Ultimately, the healing process behind forgiveness is a part of Christian sanctification-- rescue from our brokenness.
Need a new debate: WTF >>IS<< "rape culture?"
@bronsonkaahui Muslim culture. By the 'fundamentalist' interpretations of the Koran- it is permissible to have sex with a wife (up to 4 allowed) any time, even if she isn't interested. It is permissible to have sex with any infidel woman, even against her will. Some Muslims in Australia justified attacking/raping women who parade around 'partially clothed (i.e - not fully covered with a burka or hijab) are shameless...and me would be like big cats seeing fresh meat lying around - it is their (the Muslim men's) nature and it is permissible to 'have your way' with 'loose women'.
@bronsonkaahui For the purposes of this discussion, I mean a society which tends to ignore, downplay, or encourage sexual assault and harassment. I think that rape and sexual mistreatment in general is a result of a fallen, sinful world. The church ought to be on the front lines of redeeming the world from this blight. But yes, I think that a more in depth discussion of rape culture would be beneficial for all involved.
@scottishmaniac Seems kinda of vague. Which societies are rape cultures and which ones are not?
@mvineyard What's the % of "fundamentalist" muslims vs moderates? Because from my experience I would never characterize muslim culture as rape culture!!!I've lived in the Middle East for 6 years and for sure there are extreme individuals (as in other religious) who might be interpreting religious books in absurd ways but I would never use these outliers as representatives of the whole muslim community or religion... From what I've seen, they have extremely strong family values, they tend to respect and protect women even in an anti-feminist way hahah, they tend to help the ones in need etc.It's a different, much more conservative culture from what we know but hey look at the Christians these days (democrats so that we don't go after the whole R/D issue again)...If you asked my grandfather, true Christian, he would also tell you that "loose women" who wear provocative clothes are not acceptable and they are welcoming sexual assault..
@gigi Good question. (And - I didn't characterize Muslim culture - but fundamentalist Muslim Culture.) Problem is- how to measure.I have read articles that suggest maybe 10% of Muslims truly believe extremist positions. (And - 10% of 1.5 Billion Muslims is 150 million.)However - surveys taken show that a number of 'moderate Muslims' might believe that jihad is justified...that suicide bombing might be justified...(so - the 'moderates' might never be willing to be a suicide bomber or send their own children off to be a suicide bomber, the certainly are not willing to criticize and condemn it.) There are plenty of articles that survey what 'moderates' 'think acceptable' ...and it is scary how many thing certain things are 'okay' ....not that they themselves would do it.Have someone bomb an abortion center - and hints of links to a church - and you can count on the vast majority of Christians and Christian churches to condemn the actions of the bomber and to point out that nothing in the Bible would call for such a horrendous action. Have a Muslim terrorist act in a bad way...and there is not a similar outcry. It is much quieter and far less condemnation.I wonder if your grandfather was stating a fact, not a justification that 'the women deserved it..' (which is what the Australian Muslims were declaring).
@bronsonkaahui Abstract sociological constructs tend to be vague by what they are, but I agree that specificity is important here. There are lots of different cultures and societies on this earth. However, as I mentioned, I believe that subjugation of women, rape, and the like are by-products of the fall of man, a result of the original sin and a continuation of mankind's inherited sin nature. That said, I think that all cultures are to some degree rape cultures just as all people are sinful people. What makes one society better than another in this context, I think, is the degree to which is influenced by the regenerate body of the true Church and thereby how much it confronts and fights back against that sin. That at least is my perspective as a Christian. As a final note and for context, I want to clarify that I consider myself to be socially and theologically conservative.
@mvineyard @gigi As a sidebar to this discussion, I highly recommend checking out any one of the many public debates between Dr. James White (a Protestant theologian) and his Muslim clerical counterparts. I had the opportunity to hear him speak once at a church near my home, and I really respected his dedication to properly understanding and discussion the theological differences between Christianity and Islam.
@mvineyard So I'm with you about the extremists elements (of every religion or group though). And if we made this more explicit and clear then I think the muslim communities (moderate ones) wouldn't feel that the whole world is against them..I totally disagree with you about the idea that there is less condemnation of muslims about their extremists elements. As far as I've seen it in the Middles East, Europe and the US these communities the first ones to condemn these horrendous acts. And it makes perfect sense. The more of these happen, the more the world hates the muslims so if anything this actually hurts them .As of Christians outcrying when something wrong happens.. mmm, not sure about it. At least with all the mass shootings or sexual assault allegations, I've only seen Christians turning these tragedies into political discussions rather than do something about itThe point about my grandfather was more in line of conservative, old school christians who might have a lot more in common with conservative muslims....i.e. the commonalities derive mainly from the fact that you are super religious (any religion) and conservative rather than from the type of religion you follow.
@mvineyard "However - surveys taken show that a number of 'moderate Muslims' might believe that jihad is justified...that suicide bombing might be justified...(so - the 'moderates' might never be willing to be a suicide bomber or send their own children off to be a suicide bomber, the certainly are not willing to criticize and condemn it.) There are plenty of articles that survey what 'moderates' 'think acceptable' ...and it is scary how many thing certain things are 'okay' ....not that they themselves would do it."So essentially they are comparable to the average American who think that the modern Middle East crusades are morally justifiable.
@bronsonkaahui Seems to be a non sequitur... Modern Middle East Crusades? wow ...what a forced match of terms that don't make sense. Crusades? Hmmm.....lets see....liberate Kuwait - with lots of Middle East support. Hardly a religious war. Liberate Iraq from a depraved madman and his 2 evil sons....don't take anything, try to help set up a democratically elected government - and the people of Iraq want AND GET 'sharia' as part of their new government laws? Hmmm...again - we don't seem to be very effective (or even trying) to force 'our views' there. BUT- it makes a nice accusation to hurl.
@gigi - last time I looked - there is nothing in the Bible (OT or NT) that calls for sexual harassment or mass shootings. OTOH - there are plenty of Koranic verses that are cited by fundamentalist Imans as justification for what they do. That is a big difference. Mass shooting in Las Vegas - nothing remotely associated with any religion - so why would any religion speak out against it?Of course - I remember videos of Muslim crowds celebrating after the 9/11 attacks in 2001....not many speaking out against them, not many criticizing it. Of course I have some sympathy for the moderate Muslims - the majority of people killed yearly by terrorist attacks are....moderate Muslims.
@mvineyard "Liberate Iraq from a depraved madman and his 2 evil sons....don't take anything, try to help set up a democratically elected government - and the people of Iraq want AND GET 'sharia' as part of their new government laws?"LOL~Let's debate this.
@mvineyard "Of course - I remember videos of Muslim crowds celebrating after the 9/11 attacks in 2001....not many speaking out against them, not many criticizing it."And a much larger group of people were cheering on the bombing of Iraq and Libya.
@sigfried Thanks for a productive, civil discussion. 10/10 would do again!
@scottishmaniac Yep, I was delighted to have you sub in. Thanks for being candid and thoughtful.