Which side makes a better case?
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  • 2 years ago

    I think that the main reson, why the Palestinians don't like jerusalem to be proclaimed as Israel's capital, is that it is seen as the futher anexation of arab land

    • 2 years ago

      @pietpot it has already been annexed plus it has never been "Arab". Actually there wasjewish majority in jerusalem before the british mandate on Palestine. So there's noreason for the arabs to "not accept" the obvious except looking for another excuse to not go to peace talks and also kill some jews on the way backtp Ramallah.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 There have always been jews living on that land. But there is a difference between living somewere and completely taking over, throwing people out of their homes (and off their land) and starting a new country.

      There is a reason why palestinians are unwilling to accept pease with Israel and that is mainly the illigal settlements that just keep growing on their land. When one settler settles more follow, and soon you have whole cities that need to be garded by israelli watch towers.

      There are also settlers that throw arab families out of their homes en take these for their own in Jerusalem. Your belief that it is just "obvious" that Jerusalem is Israel's capital is based on your religion (which is something that not everyone adheres to) and on a kingdom that has existed thousends of years in the past (many kingdoms have come an gone since then).

      Anyway, I might not agree with what you say but a am sure that you are a nice person. Have a good night.

    • 2 years ago

      @pietpot no settler ever threw Arabs out of their home that is a lie. And Israel didn't throw Arabs out of their homes just because they esteblished a state. The Palestinian Arabs fled a war zone which they lost. From what you wrote its very obvious that you were exposed to a very biased version of the whole situation. If you want to really be able to shape personal opinion about this subject you must go and listen to the Israeli side which isn't very popular these days. You know why? Because as one very wise person once said, the speaker of truth usually loses public opinion because he has only the truth, while liar can say whatever he wants.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 So is the UN lying about illegal settlements? Or you claim that no one used to live in the settlements? And it's ok to grab land that it's not yours (even if empty) and have your people from the other end of the world settling there?
      I'm not referring to the previous wars and the land the Israel already established. Just the illegal settlements that have been growing since the last war.
      Just asking questions to understand your side since the UN and the international communities have been portraying a different reality.

    • 2 years ago

      I think that your the one that isn't exposed to the whole situation I'm afraid.

    • 2 years ago

      @gigi there's a difference between a settlement being illegal and someone throwing someone else from his home. No settler ever threw an Arab from his home. You can check that and try to prove me wrong. I don't know what Un thinks nowadays but 70 years ago it esteblished the state of Israel and it was very legal those days. The only reason why we have more land now is because we've been attacked several times by neighbor countries and we wouldn't be able to protect our borders without controlling specific areas for example the Golan heights and Judea and Samaria which is higher that the shore of Israel therefore very easy to attack from. So those who attacked should've known better who to attack. They lost we won. That how land passes hands. You can argue about its legitimacy but that's exactly how your country gained land wherever you are from. Especially if you are from the states. You can ask the native Americans what they think of the legitimacy of your presence there. Tell me what they tell you about this. That would be very interesting

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 First of all, I am from Holland, and people killing others and taking their land in the past doesn't justify others doing it lateron, secondly Palestinian homes get bulldozed so Israel can expand its settlements. Ever heard of the Rachel Corie incident?

    • 2 years ago

      @pietpot how exactly? I live here. I live with the Palestinians side by side. You can see it only through what you are shown on the media. Do you really think that you are more familiar than me with the whole situation? BTW I'm not only an Israeli I'm a settler whom you probably heard of. I live in Samaria near nablus and ramallah, I see their houses cars and their life in general, how can you know even a bit more than me of this matter? Seriously. Explain this to me. Cause this comment was either outrageous or rediculous and I really do want to be able to respect evrey one here.

    • 2 years ago

      @pietpot lie. Prove it. Never ever happened during my life here. Necer has been a Palestinian home bulldozed in order to expand a settlement. Never. You are more than welcome to prove me wrong. Please do.

    • 2 years ago

      Yes heard of a very sad incident. It happened on the border between Gaza and Egypt. No settlement has ever been built there. Don't know the exact reason why they were bulldozing those houses but most certainly not for expanding settlements.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 Thanks for your answer. Just a few comments (I'm from Europe btw):
      1) So you claim that no one was kicked out of their house as a result of an illegal settlement. Even though UN and both Israeli and Palestinian friends have confirmed the opposite, let's say that at the best of your knowledge no people were kicked out
      2) You claim that all illegal settlements were established as part of an active war during which you assume that nations establish their lands. Can you please clarify when was the last active war? Cause if I remember correctly the illegal settlements have not stopped and are recent as a few months ago so your explanation doesn't really make sense
      3) You claim that you don't know the stance of the UN now but you only care about what they were saying 70 years ago? aouts.. For an Israeli citizen who also claims that we are biased and misinformed that's very disappointing...I hope you can understand how dishonest and hypocritical it is to agree with UN when it's convenient and then forget all about UN when it doesn't fit your narrative. At least you can understand why the rest of the world finds it weird?
      4) You claim that the world is a jungle.. so if a nation with more resources and power decides to destroy its neighbors then all cool. Fair enough if you want to live in this world but you cannot expect the rest of us to adhere with the rule of the jungle right?
      5) I'm Greek and you are right! We used to have an empire, now we don't.. Despite Saint Sofia in Instanbul being center of our religion, despite everything being Greek in the coast of Turkey. We have settled borders with our neighbors and we respect these. But given that Turkey is a much bigger, stronger country, they could tomorrow invade and take all the Greek land. Maybe 500 years ago, this was fine but we now have international laws, alliances etc that do not allow the rule of jungle. So even using your narrative, i.e. make wars and grab lands, this only happens in 3rd world countries which I'm sure Israel is not

      I really hope that you can take a step back and at the very least understand where I (and the rest of the world) are coming from. Even if you don't agree, can you at least recognize how conflicting this info is? Because then you are right, we can actually sit down and listen to the Israeli side and try to make a fair assessment. But you need to at least understand where we are coming from.. not hate (we have nothing to gain) or anything, just logically it doesn't make sense..

    • 2 years ago

      @gigi 1. I claim that no Palestinian was ever kicked out of their homes in order to esteblish a new settlement. I can't prove my statement by an example. So it really doesn't matter what they claim without any proof.

      2. Israel doesn't allow building new building outside if the borders of existing settlements and even sometimes not inside of existing settlements when there are private claims of the land.. Look up "amona" "migron" and nativ avot for example.

      3. I never said I don't care of what UN thinks, I said I don't know what UN thinks. The territory of Judea Samaria defined as "disputed" and that is exactly how the international law should relate to it and not as illegal because illegality is an outcome of resolving a dispute while here it still hasn't been resolved so again claiming that Israel is doing something illegal while the previous (Jordan) did at least the same and way worse to the local population, that is what hypocritical and not my opinion of UNs very unfair and not proportional judging of Israel.

      4.nobody destroyed Noone, on the contrary before Israel occupied Judea and Samaria 90% of the Arabs didn't have streaming water, roads economy nothing. Once the jews came to the region their economy started flourishing. You can ask some older population how was it living side by side with the jews. We would buy only from them, would employ only the Arabs. And ask them how did second intifada affect their businesses. And more than this, I dare you to theoretically and secretly offer the Palestinian Arabs Israeli citizenship, they'd accept it in a minute. Controlling Judea and Samaria was strategically crucial and still is and we can't allow a Palestinian state 5 minutes drive from our international Airport. So it's not about "destroying" but rather doing everything possible to coexist safely.

      5. If we could be sure that the Arabs esteblish a peaceful state next to us we could've negotiated. But first of all they are not willing to coexist and accept our presence here that's why we can't negotiate anything cause their signature isn't worth the piece of paper it's been signed on, they do not respect any agreements with us. We've also tried this scenerio, gave away Gaza in 2005. They were talking about middle eastern Singapore lol. I shouldn't really tell you how it ended up should I? Our citizens are forced to spend days and months in shelters just because UN cares too much about their human rights and doesn't give a damn about ours. They send billions of euros in aid while hammas spends everything on building tunnels in order to attack Israel and it doesnt make Europeans to stop funding this insanity. But it isn't about right and wrong, it's about strong and weak, and liberals automatically refer to the strong one as to an oppressor. You really don't know what is going on here. You can come and see yourself what happened in the west Bank since Israel came to this region and you should also wonder how come Israel is the one to blame for Palestinian problems while their government steals their money and builds castles here in the west Bank while sending their people to "resist" aka kill Israeli citizens and in this crazy situation, what looks hypocritical to you that I don't accept the hypocrisy of the world when it comes to the matter of Israeli Palestinian conflict. Really?

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 It's just sad that we cannot have a meaningful discussion... I'm not attacking you or blame you... Israelis are resourceful, have built great businesses, established a state, have so much resources and power..admirable. Arabs have a long history, culture and a big mess to deal with, and of course their own share of responsibility in the conflict..
      Please stop making claims about my knowledge (this is not an argument or response). I have lived in the Middle East and have both Israeli and Palestinian friends who have been in more places that you have and at least know what the UN says.. They are more educated, well traveled and try to be as less biased as possible (quite difficult obviously when you are in either side of the story). So my claims are based on the situation there not the media
      And if ever there is Palestine (not sure if you've heard but the vast majority UN members recognize the Palestinian state), with their own borders, government, passports, rights for their people to return etc then I think they can run their country as they want and it's their fault whatever happens. But as far as I know there is no Palestine, no free movement of population, no passports, a corrupt puppet government, a terrorist organization etc. I would never blame ISraelis about the infrastructure and the corruption of PAlestinians nor about the stupid power games that the rest of the Arab world is playing at the expense of PAlestinian people. This is a different debate and definitely not an excuse for Israel's behavior.
      If you consider Israel the same as a non-existent/ developing nation as Palestine then fair enough..I guess I always thought that Israel belongs to the western world and should live up to these standards otherwise we can treat it as a 3rd world country.
      Anyways, thanks a lot for your comments.. I really wish that at some point I will be able to have an intelligent and as objective as possible discussion so that I can better understand and potentially help this mess.
      As long as you prefer to live with the rules of the jungle where the stronger takes it all, then I guess rockets is part of the game..

    • 2 years ago

      @gigi well I guess we started with a resolution here in israel, they, chose to fight. Since then I can't even count the trials that have been made to reach some sort of agreements with them. We have reached agreements with those who were willing to so we aren't the one creating the jungle. But yeah, the middle east is a jungle. So stop expecting of us to be pussies in a lions den. And yeah as long as the rockets are part of the game, our rockets will also be part of the game. But then don't be a hypocrite calling their rockets a resistens and ours war crimes ok?

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 hahahaha ok fine
      You way or the high way is not really negotiations.. still the rule of the jungle I'm afraid. And it's not me dear that is expecting to be civilized, it's the God you believe in.. As I said both parties have their own share of responsibility (I never accused only Israel for the failure of the negotiations), but the mistakes that have been made do not justify the situation there nor the thousands of innocent people who have died.
      But if you can live with yourself in this set up then enjoy I guess. At least you will be safe, other people will pay the price as you live in their land

  • 2 years ago

    @batsheva_1 thanks! I hope you have a great night. It was a lot of fun!

    • 2 years ago

      @julian Most deffinitley. Have a good one!

    • 2 years ago

      @julian this is what I referred to in the Bible. Ezekiel 37-one of the prophecies of the return to Israel. He prophecied a couple of thousands years ado "and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms" so whoever considers himself Christians here maybe you should reconsider.

  • 2 years ago

    Julian was very good and for someone who claims that it is rude to Israel, she resorted name-calling in her argument!

  • 2 years ago

    Shalom people. I can say I live in Israel as of right now. But guess what? I do NOT want to see the embassy moved as if there is any good time to do it whether justified or not, it is not RIGHT NOW. My theory is a lot of people who argue against what I say that they want it so desperately are either people that A) Don't live here B ) Have never even fucking been anywhere near here. C) Are in a La-La land because they just moved here and have higher than realistic expectations D) are raised in Israel and brainwashed from birth and from what I understand to an extent, in the IDF that Israel and only Israel matter in the world and haven't gotten a good wake up call yet. Israel isn't innocent. There's a reason it fails miserably to convince me and thousands of people that come to visit/go to college/stay a while to actually settle down here. This is a stab in the heart to some, but I would join the U.S. military over the IDF any day at least as of right now. But because I think this way, it's not like people bother to convince me otherwise that living here is worth the trouble. They won't say it but they think "fuck you" and move on to the next possible resident. Then ofc there's the fact of more people leaving then coming. Not much done here to help that either. They target a certain mindset that will ultimately shrink. I know I went off a bit, but there's the background to a lot of this thinking. Basically, Israel shouldn't be such a big deal to the world. It's really cause of religion that it's fought over so much. Is moving the embassy worth the stabbings that happened recently? I think not.

    • 2 years ago

      @ewatemberg Finally an alternative view from the inside..
      @batsheva_1 I guess there are Israelis who live there and have seen different things/ different opinions.

      Maybe you guys have a debate given your common background? It will probably be the most interesting debate on the topic so far!

    • 2 years ago

      @gigi I wouldn't mind. That could be interesting. However related to what he said, I don't think we should form our policy based on what some radicals might to do or not do. We should do the right thing, and when it comes to reality Jerusalem IS Israel's capital weather someone wants it or not and it will remain so. So, moving the embassy is just a technical thing that should've happened long time ago considering the fact that embassies always located in the capital.

    • 2 years ago

      @gigi plus I've just returned from the funeral of the man that was stabbed yesterday, it really doesn't matter what the "formal" reason that they claim they stabbed him for. He was stabbed because he was a jew in israel. Nowhere to run from this. So you have to be stronger to be able to protect yourself. As simple as that.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 NO. NO. It is NOT that simple. (If you are Israeli, you and fellow Israelis need to stop with "oh everything is so simple! No worries! Nothing matters childish BS. Wake up!) Tell that to the families of people getting hurt now because of that stupid decision intensifying the situation! No amount of "protection" will make sure nobody gets injured or attacked. Too many Israelis seem to have a "we are invincible" or "god will protect us always" or "only our country matters" mentality. It is time to wake the fuck up like I said. If Israelis want to see Jerusalem as their capital, they are more than welcome to! They can say it all they want. Just like Palestinians can claim East Jerusalem as THEIR capital. In the end of the day, the embassy was doing JUST FINE in Tel Aviv. There is already a situation in the Mid East, but it has been ongoing anyway with a few things here and there. NOW, ALL attention is suddenly on the Jerusalem decision and people that would CONSIDER attacking Israel now want to actually DO IT. It's not smart to have only a thick wall between you and a bunch of wild animals (that are craving human meat) and then through a small crack where they can see you, poke them with a stick and taunt them. Wouldn't that make them want to break the wall and tear you apart???You can try to shoot them all you want, but when so many animals want to kill you, you will run out of bullets and if nobody else is around that likes you enough to help, you will likely be killed. It's a similar situation except we are all humans. Israel may have done wrongs in the past but now what is seen as a GIANT wrong is now in the CURRENT and ONGOING. The decision now also put Jews WORLDWIDE at risk. Israel reminds me of a child running across a sea of legos and razors just to get across to the ice cream flavor of choise so they can show everyone they have they have what they want. I guess bloodied feet is worth it just for that? AND don't forget that America FLIP FLOPS all the time! As somebody FROM America in trump voting areas, I can tell you right now that for many Americans that voted for him don't give a shit about Israel or the Mid East. In fact, that is one of the things they admit is bad because it shows support for Jews and they HATE seeing it as a possible tax write off while meanwhile, their life in America gets worse. The main concerns stick are often DOMESTIC things, not what's going on in the Middle East. If Israel was SMART, they'd know that evangelicals supporting them now can want it destroyed tomorrow. Then what? Liberal Jews are running out of reasons to defend or fund it. It is time Israelis leave their damn bubble and open their mother fucking eyes. Harsh warning. Do it or get what Netanyahu's goal seems to be, which is complete isolation from the world and Israelis only focusing on just Israel. Then when somebody that CAN and WILL destroy it, who will help?

    • 2 years ago

      @ewatemberg I see. Do you want to debate this? I think you couldn't be more wrong about this and I don't think there's enough place to explain why.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 I am unsure. This is talked about SO OFTEN while being here that I just wanted to drop my perspective in getting something a bit different into place. I guess I could debate it, but I know I only have so much knowledge being new to Middle East education and Jewish learning. I am not saying I don't agree that the embassy should be moved as if Israel wants Jerusalem as it's capital, then yes, it should have been better considered a long time ago when it was built in the first place. Being that I partly agree with you, what do you want to debate?

    • 2 years ago

      @ewatemberg and you know what? You sound like that poor little jew in a shtettle in Poland. Trying to hide from the haters. I really couldn't figure out from what you said what is your origins but I was born in Ukraine my parents grew up being scared of anyone mentioning their religion in their "homeland" lol. So they decided to leave everything and go home. Their real home. I saw my father's look in his eyes when some antisemite told him that he should get the fuck out of his land and that exactly what my father did. Left everything. So I'd rather die than hide again. This is the only place where I can freely live and practice my religion and no man on this earth will make me make a decision based on fear. One day you will realize, probably sooner than later, that in a war with terror trying to run and hide will never bring you peace. So no point starting something that doesn't stand a chance. And now after 70 years of war with terror I personally, don't rely on "everything is going to be alright God is with us" no. I just don't give shit. If I'm the next to die in this war over freedom in my land, I'd rather die than witness my people being humiliated and hiding from sevages that will not stop killing you until you leave this land. No chance for any sort of agreement. Forget this option. Whatever they say they do this for is just an excuse to kill. It is the same reason they kill in Paris and London. And there's no Jerusalem there.

    • 2 years ago

      @ewatemberg I don't see the previous message in which I offered you to debate over this issue if you want to. Because in my opinion you couldn't be more wrong.

    • 2 years ago

      @batsheva_1 ...what the hell is a shtettle? Are you saying I am weak? Cause if so, you are already losing. I am not saying to hide from haters. I don't think you are getting my points. I completely get that Israel is something extremely special to many Jews. Believe me, every Jew gets that special emotion when first arriving at Ben Gorian airport knowing this is the ONE place in the world everything is in their ancient language, everybody GETS what Judaism is about and shows it with pride. I personally had a happy shock when I was at the store and suddenly a Hanukiah was lit and the bracha was said over the PA system. That is NOT something I will see if I go home and i I do, I may never see again. But at the same time, if the likeliness of an attack is 6 of 10, wouldn't it be smarter NOT to make it NINE out of 10? The IDF and whatever else Israel has to defend itself isn't invincible and won't ever be. Lets say all foreign funding was pulled from Israel. 100%. Gone. Would it survive? Also, this "If I die, die with my people" mentality I feel is BS. It's time to realize all humans are connected. NOBODY knows who actually has sufficient Jewish blood. It isn't possible to trace everyone and get exact of who is from this or that. It is not possible. That statement says tribalism to me. Which I get after the holocaust and all the shit Jews have gone through, but I am telling you, it is not worth the trouble. I think at this point, yes, I may actually debate you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3wKzyIN1yk

    • 2 years ago

      @ewatemberg @batsheva_1

      Looking forward to it!

  • 2 years ago

    Nice. A civilized debate on a sensitive topic