DM me or comment if you have any specific questions. A LOT was argued in this debate, so if you have specific questions about arguments that weren't referenced in my RFD then please ask.
@kelleykrook thanks man! Haha you’re right that my argument about “America means nothing under his definition” was a new argument in the final speech. It was loosely connected to the other points but you were right to disregard it :D
@sharkb8 Congratulations for advancing to the Semi-Finals!!!@metant3 Amazing debate, thank you for participating!
Good debate bro. I expected it to go the way it did and solid job. Good luck with this one and in future rounds. Solid job.
Amazing debate guy! What a way to get the top 8 started!
"All Americans have always believed in freedom and opportunity for all."but... history tho...
@lewisoflime To apply modern standards to centuries past makes it look like they weren't doing so, but they still thought they were. They used poor reasoning like thinking that African American's weren't people, which meant they didn't give equal rights to all even though they said they were doing so. But the goal itself was a positive one even while they misapplied it.Later on people realized that African Americans and women are just as human and deserve all the same rights, so they extended "for all" to mean what it really meant. Those who protested for African Americans and Women were applying the core concepts the appropriate way.
@lewisoflime dude, Jesus Christ told slaves to be obedient to their masters. Times change, as do morals. You're applying retrospective morality to a historical time that wasn't advanced enough to understand. But for their time, the American founding fathers were progressive in their ideals. Those ideals needed further fleshing out, but since they had set those ideals in motion, the furtherance of those ideals was later completed by wholly American actions, freeing the slaves, enabling women the right to vote, and fighting for individual rights for all. Just because the founding fathers got it wrong on some issues that literally the entire world at the time was also getting wrong, does not mean that protesting a flag is un-American.
@sharkb8 Jesus never said that, Paul and Peter did. And what they said was in the context of a time when slavery was legal and they would accomplish nothing by fomenting abortive slave revolts. Actually, Paul said that if a slave could obtain his freedom he should. But that aside, America was founded on exclusionary values. You can't cop out of that by saying that the rest of the world was too, that has no relevance on what Americanism means. That entire definition literally requires that America is ahead of the world on basically every civil rights issue, which is nonsense. And that contradicts with the idea that America is unjust right now.
@lewisoflime lol this clearly misunderstands my point. But thanks for watching :)
@sharkb8 I had a hard time following the 'logic' of @lewisoflime - it was rambling and very unfocused. He kept talking about 'historical' - but he comes across as totally clueless about history, and almost with a degree of animus to the US based on history (which he gets wrong!) Yes - there WERE egregious actions in the past in America....if we use modern day standards. BUT - if we look at what was happening in America - from 1608 to present day - this continent tended to be more progressively 'fair' and treated people better than other locations...hence the desire of many people to come here -rather than flee from this place. QUESTION - how many people FLED America for 'better places' over the years? What place had better opportunities for the vast majority of people here...and those choosing to move here? You point out that the moral goals of America, while not met, was good...but in general, America had great ideals....and NOT kneeling during the anthem would be appropriate -but - kneeling if America departed from its values would be appropriate. (It would be worth debating @lewisoflime ...except I doubt he would want to dig into the details.)(Great 'jujitsu' move on this debate topic.)
CON makes a great position that the resolution is poorly worded - such that it would be appropriate to kneel if there are immoral actions taking place...while it would be moral to OPPOSE kneeling over trivial things.CON suggests that kneeling (or burning) a NAZI flag would hardly be 'un-German'. GREAT point.[Personal note - I think that Colin Kapernick - kneeling during the Anthem - is making a crappy protest - because he claims he is opposed to 'police violence against blacks.' Fact is...police violence (very bad thing) is very very low against whites and even lower against blacks It would be different if Kapernick was trying to bring attention to the 'black on black violence - which is responsible for 98% of black deaths! BUT - to stage a protest based on a lie is just plain stupid! I would have tended to agree with the resolution - except that CON put it in better context...and I would agree with him that some protests are legitimate...some are not.]PRO starts looking at the past - where there were injustices against blacks (slavery) or native Americans (Indians)....but if we look back 200+ years - should we look at the actions then using metrics of 200 years ago...or using present day standards? [We would get different results!]PRO relys on 'cultural tradtions and norms' - and adhering to them - while CON has a way of looking at things from a more absolute value.PRO makes many incorrect statements about slavery....too numerous to list! (BUT - less than 10% in the south owned slaves; plenty opposed slavery. AND - the first slave was owned by a black man...and there were plenty of blacks who owned slaves. Why mention this....simply that slavery is a complex issue from the past - yes - it was evil - but it was accepted world-wide before the 1800's - but at least half of the US was willing to enter into a Civil War to end chattel slavery.)PRO wastes too much time then trying to 'tear down' America...almost ends up justifying why it would be legitimate to kneel during the anthem. I don't think he was prepared to deal with the way CON 'twisted' (which, IMHO, is legitimate) the resolution to create a reasonable and just reason where it might be appropriate to do so....I think CON makes the case that, even when we have 'injustices' - America tended to lead the way in improving things. (For example - PRO claims women could not vote until the early 1900's...yet many cities/states permitted women to vote much much earlier.....it just wasn't made a national law until later. Slavery was NOT universal in the states...but was made illegal less than 90 years after the actual founding of this country. AND - we do have plenty of unethical or unfair behavior...but that isn't part of the national identity. Our National Identity is the Declaration of Independence - which sets standards we are still trying to live up to ...
@mvineyard Yeah I wanted to mostly shy away from discussing whether Colin Kaepernick's protest is accurately grounded, and more focus on it's intentions. Whether we think he's right or wrong, a protest that is focused on the core values of America is a fundamentally American protest, because it's attempting to bring us forward toward the goals America claims to support.Glad my perspective came through for ya! I was totally not expecting you to agree with me when I picked Con on this rez :D
@sharkb8 It was the 'logical' perspective to go with. I think you could have done a little 'comparative analysis' - showing that some protests (kneeling during the anthem) are poorly 'grounded' and therefore the protest 'besmirches' the flag and the nation (Colin Kapernick) - while if the nation does things bad NOW - doing something to draw attention might be justifiable. You clearly did the second part. It is up to the debater as to whether the judges might be further swayed by including the first part.
"Protest is Un-American!" say people who live in a country founded by protestors.How about all you anti-Take a Knee people just admit you hate Black people. That's what this comes down to. You just want Black athletes to injure themselves for your amusement, you don't care that they are human beings with rights, particularly the right to peaceful protest. And what is being protested, despite what the liars in Right Wing media tell you, isn't the anthem or the flag it is the MURDER of Black people at the hands of corrupt, racist, and militarized police departments.By saying the kneeling protests are Un-American, you are admitting to being a pro-police state racist. You do NOT believe in freedom and Democracy, and you are NOT a good, moral person.
I was totally pro this until you said EVERY American had slaves. WRONG! totally false. No one in my family had owned a slave EVER. Up until that point I was pro for this.