2 years ago
Which side makes a better case?
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  • 2 years ago

    Moshe obviously couldn't take the heat.

    • 2 years ago

      This was the biggest waste of time. You make a claim that it is murder without offering a shred of evidence. You argue like a child. Your facts are skewed. Asked time and again how do you know they were innocent civilians while terrorist organizations have commended those killed for all they have done for their organization, you offered zero. Give me a break. I never get heated like that but you are nothing short of an embarrassment. You try to make bold claims with nothing to back it up.

      • 2 years ago

        @mosheweissman You're just a mouthpiece for Hasbara, as usual. In your eyes all Arabs are terrorists. You really showed your racist ignorance and bigotry. I'm glad you did so because you are yet another example of the type of uncaring, cavalier, Israel-loving morons that the world is slowly waking up to. Your grasp of facts is poor and you only embarrassed yourself by stating Gaza was controlled by Jordan. Says it all...

    • 2 years ago

      https://www.facebook.com/StandWithUs/videos/10155582147632689/

      Oh, nothing to see here. Just Palestinians faking getting shot. Yup. Real credible.

      • 2 years ago

        I'm just going to wait here for your evidence. You know. The kind of thing you need when making an accusation of murder. "Not sure if they teach you that in your country." What a dumb line.

        • 2 years ago

          I mean dude, you called me a racist because I said that Israel is tiny compared to the surrounding Arab lands. Like come on.

          • 2 years ago

            @mosheweissman yes, i'm sorry, I shouldn't have called you a racist for saying that. What I should have said is that you're just idiotic (and predictable) for saying it. A bit like talking about Luxemberg saying it's surrounded by "Christian countries". But i'd never say that because it is IRRELEVANT AND STUPID!!

          • 2 years ago

            @bookman That was your first thing you said when I started talking. You call me a racist. You were confrontational from the onset and came to the table with no evidence to substantiate your claim. I am still waiting for evidence. Will you be supplying any?

        • 2 years ago

          https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-at-least-10-of-the-16-killed-at-gaza-border-were-members-of-terror-groups/

          Nope. None were terrorists. All just peaceful protesters. Enjoy drinking the kool-aid.

          • 2 years ago

            You are an ignoramus under the guise of a wise man. Look at the links I posted. If you want I can post plenty more. Still waiting for your evidence though. Why aren't you posting any?

            • 2 years ago

              @mosheweissman UN report: "United Nations (UN) High Commissioner for Human Rights Liz Throssell released a statement, over the weekend, condemning the “deplorable killing” of Palestinian protesters in Gaza.
              The statement was released on Friday, hours before nine Palestinians were killed along the border — including a journalist and two minors — bringing the death toll to 29 since “The Great March of Return” began on March 30." Well I know you will automatically claim any adult male is a terrorist (without evidence, as usual, and notwithstanding the fact that they do in any event have the legal right to armed resistance, just like the French who fought the Nazis in WW2), are those two minors terrorists? No, don't tell me- they were being used as human shields! obviously. Israel is no better than the Nazis and your support speaks volumes.

            • 2 years ago

              @bookman So you're not going to address the link I've posted which proves what you are saying to NOT be true? Cool story.

          • 2 years ago

            This man was clearly(!) a threat to those brave IDF soldiers, I mean he might have run them over in his wheelchair! Clearly a terrorist and clearly not murdered: https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20180214_killing_of_ibrahim_abu_thuraya

          • 2 years ago

            Here's a list of those "defensive" operations against Syria:

            June 9-10, 1967: Israel attacks Syria, occupying the country’s Golan Heights during its Six Day War on Arab territories.

            October 5, 2003 (Ain es Saheb airstrike): An Israeli warplane squadron attacks a camp about 24 kilometers northwest of the Syrian capital, Damascus, injuring a civilian guard.

            September 6, 2007: Israel attacks Dayr al-Zawr Province in northeastern Syria, striking what it says is a suspected nuclear reactor.

            November 11, 2012: Israel fires a “warning shot” in the direction of Syria, alleging that it is responding to a stray mortar round fired from the southwestern Syrian province of Quneitra.

            November 17, 2012: Israel opens artillery fire against positions belonging to the Syrian Army, alleging that it was retaliating for attacks on an Israeli patrol near the demilitarized zone. It later stages a direct strike at the source of mortar shells that it says the Syrian Army fired in response to the first Israeli strike.

            January 30, 2013: Israeli warplanes strike a convoy that Tel Aviv claims was carrying weapons to Hezbollah.

            March 24, 2013: The Israeli military releases a guided missile at a Syrian trench used for deploying machineguns. It alleges it is responding to shots fired at Israeli forces in the occupied Golan Heights, though affirming that none of its troops had been wounded in the alleged incident there.

            May 21, 2013: Israeli forces attack what they say is the source of fire targeting an Israeli vehicle in the Golan Heights.

            July 17, 2013: The Israeli military fires at a group of unidentified individuals on Syria’s border after an Israeli patrols comes under purported fire near the demilitarized zone.

            August 17, 2013: Israeli forces hit a Syrian Army outpost with a guided missile, alleging that they are responding to Syrian mortar rounds.

            March 18, 2014: Israel hits Syrian military targets, including a military headquarters and an Army base, with artillery and aerial fire, describing the attacks as tit-for-tat strikes after a purported explosive goes off near an Israeli military vehicle close to the Syrian border. It says one Israeli soldier was killed in the alleged incident.

            March 28, 2014: Israeli forces fire volleys of bullets at what the regime calls the source of Syrian mortar shells fired at Israeli military positions on Mount Hermon in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights.

            June 23, 2014: The Israeli regime bombards Syrian Army targets several times, killing at least 10 Syrian soldiers in response to an alleged strike a day earlier on a water truck moving along the border fence.

            July 15, 2014: The Israeli military kills 18 Syrians, including eight civilians, in attacks on three locations on Syrian soil. It says it had come under rocket attack in the occupied Golan Heights earlier.

            September 23, 2014: Israel downs a Syrian military aircraft that it alleges wandered into the occupied Golan Heights.

            August 20, 2015: Israel takes Quneitra and its neighboring province of Rif Dimashq under successive airstrikes, hitting Syrian military outposts and soldiers. The regime claims it had come under rocket fire in the occupied Golan Heights and the Upper Galilee area earlier. It kills five civilians in an attack on a vehicle a day later, claiming it is seeking to take out those behind the rocket attacks.

            PressTV-Syria shoots down Israeli F-16 jet, pilots eject
            The Syrian military targets at least one Israeli F-16 warplane that attacked Syrian territory, hitting it and sending it down in flames and smoke.

            November 28, 2016: Israel hits an abandoned UN building in the occupied Golan Heights, claiming it is suspected of being used by the militants.

            March 16-17, 2017: Israel confirms, for the first time, that it targeted what it called a convoy belonging to the Hezbollah resistance movement near the Syrian ancient city of Palmyra. The attack marked the deepest foray by Israel into Syrian territory yet.

            April 23, 2017: Israel’s military strikes positions on the outskirts of Quneitra’s capital city of the same name, killing three forces allied with the Syrian government.

            June 24, 2017: Israeli warplanes destroy two Syrian tanks and a machinegun position in response to alleged shells hitting Israel the previous day, killing several Syrian soldiers and civilians.

            June 24-26, 2017: Israel kills 13 Syrian soldiers in repeated attacks on Syrian military targets in Quneitra.

            October 21, 2017: Israel hits Syrian artillery positions after five mortar rounds come down in an open area in the occupied Golan Heights. Syrian government sources say later that the mortar fire, which caused no damage or casualties, had been aimed at “terrorists linked to Israel.” The terrorists, they say, “had [themselves] launched mortar shells, upon the instructions of the Israeli occupation, on an area of empty land inside the occupied territories to give the Israeli enemy a pretext to carry out its aggression.”

            February 10, 2018: The Israeli

            • 2 years ago

              @bookman You consider the 6 day war to be an immoral attack?? Let's see if you recognize these words:

              "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of the Zionist existence."

              "Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger is united...I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of the annihilation."

              How many small countries being surrounded by many other larger, better equipped countries, would just sit around and wait to get attacked. Give me a damn break. You know nothing.

            • 2 years ago

              How about the closing of the straits of Tiran? You speak so much and say so little. Idiots like you need to be called out.

            • 2 years ago

              @mosheweissman I know nothing, really? Address by Prime Minister Begin at the National Defense College, 8 August 1982.
              “In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

            • 2 years ago

              @mosheweissman oh, do you mean this?:

              Israel sends to Washington Meir Amit (head of Mossad) to try a different tack.

              Amit concedes Egypt not about to attack. Tells Robert Mcnamara (US Secretary of Defense) “there were no differences between the US and Israelis on the military intelligence picture or interpretation”. In other words, Amit knew full well the CIA’s assessment of no Egyptian attack and agrees with it.

              Yitzhak Rabin (Chief of Staff IDF) also agrees with this assessment.

              Amit simply tells Johnson Israel will attack and asks what the US will do. Receives assurances that US will not disclose its knowledge of Israel intentions or Egypt’s (non) intentions and effectively keep quiet. This is seen as “green light” or at least “amber light”

              Israel had been trying another ruse. Starting May 25th flies Israeli seamen out to East Africa to man The Dolphin. Plan is to sail the Straits of Tiran in the hope of drawing Egyptian fire (Johnson had warned Israel not to fire the first shot) thereby being able to claim Egypt’s opening armed hostilities. Plan dropped as fears are it will warn Egypt and give them time to prepare against imminent attack.

              What happens next is tantamount to military coup. Generals demand Ashkol hands over his (duel) position as Defence Minister to Moshe Dayan.

              June 4th 1967. Israli Cabinet meets. All plans to coax Egypt into attacking are now off the table. Cabinet authorizes IDF to invade. Dayan sets H Hour for 7.45am the next day with an attack on Egyptian Airfields and followed almost immediately by tank assault into Sinai.

              Israel spins a false story that Egyptian air force was attacking and detected on radar (difficult as they were all destroyed on the ground) and that their ground forces were advancing in the direction of the Negev. US intelligence services find that Israel stories are false. Washington concluded “The Israelis had launched a pre-emptive strike. Pure and simple” The CIA could detect no military action by Egypt prior to the massive Israeli air and ground invasion of Egypt. This conclusion was reached by the other major powers too including Britain and the USSR.

          • 2 years ago

            According to Human Rights Watch, “Israeli soldiers were not merely using excessive force, but were apparently acting on orders that all but ensured a bloody military response to the Palestinian demonstrations. The result was foreseeable deaths and injuries of demonstrators on the other side of a border who posed no imminent threat to life.” It is notable that there has not been a single Israeli casualty, and that Palestinians have refrained from escalating violence despite the attacks on them.

            The targeting of civilians is a war crime, and there is now ample evidence of Israeli forces carrying out extrajudicial killings of unarmed demonstrators and even members of the press. Israeli Defence Minister Avigdor Lieberman shockingly responded to this by claiming that there are “no innocent people in Gaza”.

            The refusal of the Israeli government to investigate the use of lethal force against civilians demonstrates how little regard they have for Palestinian lives. Israel, as an occupying power, is legally responsible for the wellbeing of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. Despite this, Israel have imposed a debilitating decade long siege on Gaza that has triggered major socio-economic and health crises. 80% of the population are dependent on humanitarian aid to survive, and 42% of essential medicines are currently at zero stock.

            The UN warns that Gaza will be uninhabitable by 2020 unless urgent action is taken. As it stands, 97% of the water is not safe for consumption and there are electrical blackouts for around 16 hours each day. Former UN Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon, stated that “the closure of Gaza suffocates its people… It’s a collective punishment for which there must be accountability.”

            • 2 years ago

              bookman got destroyed, lost the debate 10 seconds in when he started in with the ad hominem attacks. b-man should understand that ad-hominem attacks are a logical fallacy. Making a point of clarification about a map and seeing Gaza among a greater context makes you a racist? b-man got shredded in this.

              • 2 years ago

                Really shitty debate tbh, but it's also a really obvious Pro vote. Moshe is trying to get Michael to prove that there are 0 terrorists who Israel killed. Actually the burden of proof is exactly the opposite. Moshe has to prove that 0 of the victims are innocent. If one victim was innocent, then Israel has committed murder. He doesn't do that, so Pro wins, easily.

                And Michael was right to call Moshe out early on for saying that there are lots of other Muslim controlled countries in the area. That literally has nothing to do with this issue and it's a clearly racist thing to say. It's just like if there was a debate about "Cops in America have committed murder of black people" and then the Con says "but there are a ton of countries in Africa that are controlled by black people! It's irrelevant and racist to the issue at hand.

                • 2 years ago

                  @sharkb8 hey Daniel(?) thanks for bringing some sense to this. I think you articulated that very well. I have to apologize for letting my emotions get the better of me though and for spoiling the pleasure of viewers. I see murder on my screen every day (I don't watch the mainstream stuff) and I'm sick of this "terrorist" narrative and everything else that goes with it. Notwithstanding whether they are terrorists or not (and let's not forget who actually defines that) it is still murder. Let's consider if the US had defined (or more to the point "labelled") the Black Civil Rights Movement as a terrorist organization would that have given police the right to shoot anyone taking part in a demonstration? I'm sure any decent person would agree; but the West seems to consider Palestinians (and often Arabs generally) as less than human. That, in a nutshell is racism. And as you so clearly point out (alongside other very valid points), the burden of proof is not on me.

                  I'll endeavor to do better next time but it is good to see someone of obvious intelligence take a rational view of this. Cheers

              • 2 years ago

                The problem here is twofold.

                1. The animosity starts early and never really ends. Con starts it in his rebuttal and it escalates, with a brief pause, then continues.

                2. Both sides insist their claims are true, but neither side brought any support to the debate to uphold it, so we just got a lot of nay-saying happening.

                • 2 years ago

                  @sigfried I can't disagree with you Sigfried. I guess I got heated but I'm sure you would have done too if I had said something completely outrageous and disgusting in our "holocaust" debate (even then I felt you were emotionally effected to a degree). I'm only human and when someone comes out with the usual "they're all terrorists and don't matter" crap then I do bite! Thanks for commenting.

                • 2 years ago

                  @bookman Ya, for the record, I thought you reacting rather than instigating here.

                  I think emotion is normal and for social issues, appropriate even. The subject of murder is going to be emotional. Same with war. The situation in Israel and Palestine cannot be separated from emotion because emotion drives so much of it.

                  I was hoping each side would dig into the detailed facts about what happened in so much as possible.