Which side makes a better case?
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  • a year ago

    It’s funny because I don’t think there is a single person on QO who is a Russia Conspiracy Theorist. Edit: Actually maybe Arkle is.

    • a year ago

      @sharkb8 anyone who thinks Mueller's investigation is legitimate is a Russiagate conspiracy theorist.

    • a year ago

      @bronsonkaahui Oooooh so this resolution is asking "Do people who wait for evidence before making up their mind about an issue have low IQ's or just poor reasoning skills?" Gotcha.

    • a year ago

      @sharkb8 yes it is absolutely the case that if you told me that you were waiting for Trump to complete his "investigation" of Obama's birth certificate before you realized the birther hoax was bullshit I would probably attribute that to low IQ. I've never really met a smart person who was unsure and "just had to wait."

    • a year ago

      @bronsonkaahui You are comparing apples to Polish Anteaters. I'm going to make one comment and one comment only.

      1. There was 0 reason to check Obama's birth certificate and 0 arguments were made about why it should be believed he was born in Kenya. The only sources who had said he was born in Kenya had already acknowledged they were mistaken and had corrected the record. It was a claim without a shred of evidence. Also, your example defeats your own argument. A guy named Phillip Berg did try to bring a suit about Obama's birth certificate, but it was denied for lack of evidence.

      2. Contrast this with the Trump Russia investigation. Remember, all that would be needed for an "investigation" is enough to say "ok it's possible that there's something to this so let's look into it."

      Before Mueller took over, The FBI had been investigating whether members of the Trump campaign knowingly solicited and/or accepted campaign assistance from agents of the Russian government. It was already strongly believed (and now confirmed) that the Russian government had actively interfered in the US election, so the question was whether they had any inside help.

      Meanwhile, Trump was taking a surprisingly soft tone toward Russia in his campaign. Language that seemed harsh toward Russia was also removed from the 2016 RNC platform.

      Trump campaign officials including Manafort had made repeated contacts with senior Russian intelligence officers, some of which appeared to be direct solicitations for assistance from the Russian government. Other Trump campaign officials such as Michael Flynn, Jared Kushner, Trump Jr., and Jeff Sessions all had direct contact with Russian government agents during the 2016 campaign.

      Sometimes it can be hard to remember all the people you've talked to, or to identify certain agents as government agents, but many Trump campaign officials did not disclose such meetings with Russian agents, did not recall such meetings, or directly lied about contacts with Russian agents, adding more reason to wonder if there was something the Trump campaign was hiding. Kushner and Flynn also met with Russian government officials to try to set up a line of communication that US intelligence would be unaware of.

      Felix Sater, an American Real Estate Developer representing Trump in Russia, who was previously convicted of stock fraud with the Russian Mafia, had sent an email to Michael Cohen saying "Buddy our boy can become president of the USA and we can engineer it. I will get all of Putins team to buy in on this. I will manage this process." He also sent emails found during the investigation saying "I will get Putin on this program and we will get Donald elected... If he says it we own this election."

      In early 2015, US intelligence had already begun hearing Russian government officials discussing Trump and his associates and how to get in contact with them.

      A dossier had been compiled, some of which was accurate and some faulty, which suggested that Trump may have been susceptible to blackmail by the Russian government. One of the claims made in that dossier was that Michael Cohen had traveled to Prague to meet with Russian officials. Cohen denied this and said his passport would show he had never been to Prague, although his claim has been debunked, and the Steele dossier affirmed, because Cohen apparently had traveled to Prague through Germany, which did not require a passport check. Cohen intentionally lied about this meeting and offered a false way to verify it.

      Trump then fired the head of the agency that was investigating all of this information. This could possibly have been for good cause, or it could have been because he didn't want the investigation to continue after the head of the FBI wouldn't swear loyalty. Regardless, after everything else, it was a clear sparkplug that said that some sort of independent group should be involved here. There was a wealth of information the FBI had uncovered, and that Mueller has continued to uncover. To try to act like this is the same thing as Obama's birth certificate is uneducated and utterly foolish.

      All of this is to say, the evidence for an investigation was and is blatantly obvious. These factors could all amount to nothing, and it's entirely possible there's a valid reason for all of the Trump Campaign's actions. But it's also entirely possible the Trump campaign has something to hide, which is what an investigation can determine.

      It would be utterly daft, in the face of the available evidence, to say that there wasn't even a reason to wonder. As Sigfried repeatedly told you "where there's smoke, there's fire". Even if there isn't fire in this case, it has always made sense to look and see if such fire exists. Both Republicans and Democrats were on board with that. Now we wait for the results of the investigation. But of course, you believe by faith that Trump and his team are 100% innocent all the time. Me, I wait for evidence before I make up my mind.

    • a year ago

      @sharkb8 mic drop

    • a year ago

      @sharkb8 No response from RT Bronson yet? Hmmmmm?

    • 4 months ago

      @dorothy8532 RT reports that there was no collusion. You were wrong about everything and I was right.