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  • a year ago

    the crux of my argument is

    In the end of first trimester its just a bunch of cells (1000-10000 cells) inside the womb which is capable of creating a human being. Sperm/ovum cells are also capable of creating a human being. If killing the bunch of cells in first trimester is wrong then masturbation is wrong because it kills a bunch of sperms cells which is capable of producing a bunch of human beings.

    In fact masturbation is more wrong than abortion because it kills 100,000,000 potential human beings by killing 100,000,000 individual cells, where as abortion just kills only one potential human being by killing 1000-10000 cells. So technically masturbation is 10000 times more worse than abortion.

    • a year ago

      Also periods. ;)

      • a year ago

        @arkle Yea ofcourse. I didn't include periods because they lose only 1 egg in one cylce, so thats not as dramatic as 100M sperm cells. And also CONs will get a chance to argue that "it is a natural process responsible for killing for that, so its ok".

    • a year ago

      No. Sperm isn’t a separate being from the parent. When the sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is formed. That being has it’s own individual DNA and cells. Those cells will multiply and develop into a person given enough time.

      I’d agree that a first trimester fetus is not the same as a born person, but it’s still a clearly separate and more valuable entity from sperm.

      • a year ago

        @sharkb8 I'm glad to disagree here again!

        Can you give me the value of life through the following process.

        ejaculation (sperms ) -> fertilization -> zygote- > embryo (1-12 weeks)-> foetus (12-40 weeks) ->born baby -> 1 year old -> 10 year old -> 30 year old -> 50 year old -> 90 year old

        Can you give me the value of those things throughout the process ? for eg: do you value zygote more than a sperm? do u value an 5 week embryo more than 4 week embryo? do u value a 20 week foetus more than 21 week foetus? do u value a 10 year old over 1 year old?

        You can take up my h2h if you want

      • a year ago

        @mani_bharathy When a being has sentience, they are considered persons. Once the child has sentience, it deserves protection.

        Before that point, the fetus still has it's own unique DNA and body. It is growing and changing along a natural process, and if left alone, it will turn into a human person.

        A sperm is not that. The sperm does not have it's own distinct human DNA. If left alone it will literally do nothing. It does not grow and change. On it's own, it has as much worth as piss, although you can probably do more with sperm if you properly utilize it.

        I don't feel like doing a h2h over this one. It's really simple and obvious. There is obviously a different category between a fetus and a sperm.

      • a year ago

        @sharkb8 this could go into a long comment thread. I'd prefer lounge.

      • a year ago

        @sharkb8 Even according to your rule based on sentience. sperm and first trimester embryo are same because they both have no sentience. So your statement proves my claim

        And also I diagree that sentience is the only factor. There is a lot more like pain, brain activity etc

      • a year ago

        @sharkb8 It abolute ignorance when you say piss and sperm are same.

        To give you one difference, piss has no life. but semen has 100M seperate cells (100M distinguished lives)

      • a year ago

        @sharkb8
        " If left alone it will literally do nothing. It does not grow and change. On it's own, it has as much worth as piss, although you can probably do more with sperm if you properly utilize it."

        I can say the same to a born baby. If left alone it will die. It does not grow and change. On it's own, it has as much worth as piss, although you can probably do more with baby if you properly utilize it.

      • a year ago

        @mani_bharathy uh, no. Grass and paint are different entities, and neither of them have sentience. Simply sharing a lack of sentience does not make a sperm and fetus the same.

        I never said sentience was the only factor. I said it is a clear distinguishing characteristic of human personhood. Pain and brainwaves can also tie into the question and make a fetus worthy of protection.

        I did not say piss and sperm are the same. I said their moral value is the same. And no, sperm is not 100M distinguished lives. There may be 100M cells, but they are valueless cells. If I bump my head, brain cells die. If I stub my toe, cells die. If I cut my hair or mow the lawn, cells die. Cells dying doesn't mean anything.

        There is a substantive difference between a sperm before it molds with the egg, and then the being that is formed when the sperm and egg unite. The united sperm and egg form an entirely new being with it's own individual DNA. That being which is formed might not be worth all the immediate privileges of personhood, but it is certainly in a different category from the sperm.

      • a year ago

        @sharkb8 Again I find a lot of inconsistencies in your statements. This comment debate is not going to go anywhere. Tell me whenever you are free for lounge.

      • 9 months ago

        @mani_bharathy you never implie this argument was defined by value of life. by that logic your saying masturbation is the same as straight up shooting someone wich is ridiculous. ie. life cannot be valued even 1000>1 so that argument is invalid

    • a year ago

      I think someone could easily argue that the fertilized egg is significantly different than any given gamete as the gamete does not have a unique identity and by design, is a million to one odds of becoming a full term child even if it is put into the "proper" location and context.

      • a year ago

        @sigfried

        "the fertilized egg is significantly different than any given zygote"
        Isn't zygote and fertilized egg the same? Am I missing something?

        "zygote does not have a unique identity "
        Oh, why is that? isn't zygote has all the info for the unique human being?

        "and by design, is a million to one odds of becoming a full term child even if it is put into the "proper" location and context"
        are you talking about the failure of the embryo to implant itself in the uterus? If yes, that's like 50-50 chance right?

      • a year ago

        @sigfried got any thoughts?

      • a year ago

        @mani_bharathy Perfect example of mental masturbation.

      • a year ago

        @mani_bharathy "Isn't zygote and fertilized egg the same? Am I missing something?

        My mistake, I used the wrong term! I meant to refer to the term for the sperm, not a Zygote but a Gamete. Sorry about the confusion. I've corrected the post.

      • a year ago

        @sigfried why do you say


        "and by design, is a million to one odds of becoming a full term child even if it is put into the "proper" location and context"

        well. thats because there is only one egg available in fallopian tube for the sperms to fertilize. Other eggs are in ovaries. If you give every sperm cell an egg it will grow into a human

      • a year ago

        @mani_bharathy "well. that's because there is only one egg available in fallopian tube for the sperms to fertilize. Other eggs are in ovaries. If you give every sperm cell an egg it will grow into a human"

        Well it might, but that's not how it works, there is only one egg, and millions of sperm. Many eggs go unfertilized and many more sperm do. Life is full of selection processes to determine fitness.

        We don't attach any moral weight to sperms and eggs for the most part. Some religious groups have prohibitions against masturbation, either because it promotes "sinful thought" or because of a passage about not spilling your "seed" on the ground in the bible. But it is not because they value sperm or eggs as human beings the way they argue for the rights of a fetus.

        Ultimately, while people try to make technical arguments, I think it really comes down to someones empathy and feeling of kinship. I suppose someone could feel kinship with sperm, but I've never actually encountered anyone who felt that way. I have met folks that feel that way about an embryo. I don't, but others certainly do.

      • a year ago

        @sigfried

        "Life is full of selection processes to determine fitness."
        This is problematic. Would you let a poor person die because he is unfit to get his own food?

        "We don't attach any moral weight to sperms and eggs for the most part."

        We do a lot of things. That doesn't mean that they are all completely logical.

        "Some religious groups have prohibitions against masturbation, either because it promotes "sinful thought" or because of a passage about not spilling your "seed" on the ground in the bible. But it is not because they value sperm or eggs as human beings the way they argue for the rights of a fetus."

        Same for the religion too. Just because they say that can't be right.

        "Ultimately, while people try to make technical arguments, I think it really comes down to someones empathy and feeling of kinship."

        I agree. But empathy is based on emotions not logic. While there is an easy logical way to find an answer why go for the emotional way?

        " I suppose someone could feel kinship with sperm, but I've never actually encountered anyone who felt that way. I have met folks that feel that way about an embryo. I don't, but others certainly do."

        If that is the case, then you are saying that abortion issue cannot have one right answer and it is subjective to people ? If someone don't feel kinship with their 9 month old foetus can they kill them ?

      • a year ago

        @mani_bharathy "This is problematic. Would you let a poor person die because he is unfit to get his own food?"

        I might. It depends on the situation. Say there were a million people that could not afford food. Would I, could I feed them all? No. I could feed a few perhaps, and I might well do so. I cannot and you cannot save all the worlds sperm from destruction so it's really a pretty pointless line of argument from a moral perspective.

        "Just because they say that can't be right. "

        You seem to be mistaking statements I make as an explanation as an argument. They are not intended to persuade you but to point out the views that other people hold on the subject so that you can understand them.

        "I agree. But empathy is based on emotions not logic. While there is an easy logical way to find an answer why go for the emotional way?"

        When the question is about how you feel, then you use feelings to guide you. When it is about deductive fact, you use that to guide you. Morality is intrinsically a product of human subjectivity in my view. So our emotion is the core of our moral world. Logic and reason are used in service of it, but the motivation for it is mostly one of emotion and human desire.

        Most things have the components of motive and means. A motive is intrinsically emotional and a means... well it should be rational, though it too often isn't.

        "If that is the case, then you are saying that abortion issue cannot have one right answer and it is subjective to people ? If someone don't feel kinship with their 9 month old foetus can they kill them ?"

        Almost. Each person makes up their own mind. What they "can" or can't do is a collective social judgment rather than a personal one. So, just because you think it is moral to kill a 9 month fetus, does not mean society will not sanction you for it. And just because you think life begins at conception does not mean society will uphold that belief.

        We each make our own moral judgments, but we are also all part of societies that enforce collective moral codes (and other more pragmatic codes as well). You can choose to defy social codes, but you will likely face the use of force in doing so. You can choose to try and change moral codes, but you will need to be very persuasive to do so.

      • 9 months ago

        @sigfried I am your new biggest fan XD