I would not say that many definitions make something undefinable. Consider that we are talking about a movement for women. And that women are half the worlds population. That means that you are going to have some wide variation.I will say there is a natural paradox in asking for equality, while also asking for special accommodation.
@sigfried Yes, women make up about half of the population but only a small percentage consider themselves feminists. As a movement that revolved strictly around equality, more women are viewing it as a way to twist it and see themselves more powerful than men. Notice the word “Feminism” is strictly pointed towards females, not equality. Yes, years ago it made sense, but now women can do what they want and be independent. Now, women expect men to pay the bill, open doors for them, but also expect equality? The definition is changing and I believe that influences the entire movement and is creating it to become something new and quite upsetting.
@sophicx I've certainly seen instances where women are not treated with respect and cant do what they want to do. The legal issues have been largely settled, a great victory for feminism in the US. But if you think that is the case all around the world, you should open your eyes wider.And as to men paying bills and opening doors, that's not part of feminism so far as I've every encountered it. Most would consider that part of a patriarchal code where men are caretakers of women.For my own feminism, I think it is up to any given woman to make her own decisions about who she wants to be and how she prefers to be treated. I try to treat women with the same respect I'd afford a man.I'm curious what specific harms you think stem from modern feminism. Who is harmed and in what way that you find it "quite upsetting"?
@sigfried Yes, there are women who consider themselves feminists that revolve around the movement years ago; but there’s also women who are starting to add additional aspects that do not imply with biological equality.These are the “rights” most feminists these days want that upset me (and trust me, most feminists I’ve spoken to follow them):- Most want to “free the nipple” and expect men not to look, because if they do, it’s wrong.- They believe pregnancy is unequal and it is wrong that they have to be the ones over the man to stay home while he works.- They believe that they can do all physical tasks men are biologically built to achieve.There’s a lot more to back this up, so much stances that many feminists I had personally encountered believe in and push for. Not all of them follow it, but that’s where the stance is changing. There’s casual feminists who support rights and just want them to continue, but there’s also new-age “feminists” who are often described as “feminazis” because their movement is to the extreme.
@sophicx Why do you find those upsetting exactly?Everyone has nipples, men can have theirs on display, no problem. Women who reveal theirs can be fined or put in jail. That doesn't strike me as just. What would people having their nipples visible do to harm you?Pregnancy is unequal of course, and that has certain repercussions. Women would like if they could have children and maintain a career. Is that somehow dangerous to you or others?Not all men can do the same tasks, and no one's biology was built for playing football, digging ditches, or building sky scrapers. If someone wants to do a job, and they can show that they are able to do the job, what is the problem?
@sigfried Yes everyone has nipples, including men, but are women biologically attracted to a man’s breast as a man is attracted to a woman’s breast? That’s where biology kicks in and makes it a completely different viewpoint. For example, there is a recent headline on a girl who attended a music festival with her breasts exposed. She was moving them around in people’s faces, and as soon as a man touches them- he harassed her, and was completely charged, even though her actions were completely leading him on. This is where I’m explaining how many feminists think it’s okay to fully expose their breasts and sexualize themselves, then expect the opposing sex to just go along with it and not be sexually attracted to what they are seeing. Even if it is unintentional, what man wouldn’t stare over a huge pair of breasts put out in the public world?Pregnancy, yes, is unequal, but I don’t believe it should be complained about by women. If they don’t want to reproduce they have a complete choice whether they’d like to follow through or not. What they don’t understand is pregnancy could be an advantage. It gives mothers a kind of connection with a baby that a father doesn’t have the ability to acquire. Personally, I believe whoever is making more income whether it is the male or female could work either way, that’s an equality stance in feminism that I agree on.And yes not everyone is built according to specifics, but speaking in averages with biology, men are usually larger and stronger than women, and in early human age they would be the ones obligated to hunt. Yes, times have changed, but we do see men working construction and physical jobs more because, by studies and common knowledge, men are more interested in jobs like that than women are. Just like how you see more women are teachers than men. Yes, I agree women should be able to work those jobs, but only if it’s in their desire, not if they feel like it’s their obligation.
@sophicx BreastsA. No matter what someone does, you don't have a right to grab them. They can be as sexy as anything, and it doesn't give you the right to touch or harass them. As a man, I am fully capable of being attracted to women without assaulting them. B. Yes, many women are attracted to men's nipples. Not to the same degree, but they certainly are.C. Staring is something no one can truly prevent, and they don't like it whether you have your nipples out or not. So it really doesn't enter into it.But all you have done is to pity men having to be exposed to boobs and not be able to just grab them. That truly upsets you? That men can't just grab all the boobies they like? Or that men get turned on by breasts?PregnancyWhat you find upsetting is that people complain about being pregnant? Have you been pregnant? I've heard its not exactly the most fun one can have. JobsNo one should be judged because they happen to have a penis or a vagina. If you can do the job, then do the job, if you can't then don't. Individuals should not be judged based on averages. It seems we agree on that so I don't see what has you upset about women wanting to do jobs that are more popular with men.Frankly, you just seem to be upset that some women want to change some social norms or that they are inclined to complain about the unique challenges of being a woman. Honestly, I don't see how either does you any harm, and thus I don't see how either should upset you personally.It seems to me more like you just want to judge them and earn the acceptance of those who promote a "traditional" place for women in society that corners them into specific roles and attitudes. Or because you happen to like traditional attitudes and you find it disturbing that others might not agree with you about them.
@sigfried Before I continue I would like to make a couple clarifications:First of all, you constantly remind me how I am “personally” upset with feminism and make it seem as if it effects me on a deep level. The part that I find upsetting is how many different stances their are in one movement, some even going against others, so it’s upsetting that it’s almost impossible for anyone to wrap their whole head around it.In the subject of jobs in your last comment, you stated how I don’t agree that women should have jobs that are built for more physical labor, where I stated that I believe they should have the opportunity to work any job they want. Key word, want. Many complain about how jobs are almost “segregated” into gender, even though by sole interest amongst two genders, where they have the full ability to work, but still feel obligated to complain about it.With breasts, the story I explained is just an example to why woman and men have complete different biology when it comes to breasts. Where most men will stare, many women get offended or often feel harassed, yet they expect a perfect world where their breasts should be implied the same as a man’s yet it will never be that way.I find people complaining about pregnancy quite oblivious because they have the choice. Instead of complaining, just choose not to be pregnant if it’s unwanted. They’re histerectomy procedures available if it’s wanted.Concluding your comment you involved tradition, as you probably see me as a conservative, which I am not. I believe in rights for LGBT members and so on, but with feminism I look at biological facts, anatomy, and history. I am a student taking medical courses and I connect my studies with movements as I am a very literal person.
@sophicx I appreciate you explaining yourself. It can take some dialog to get a feel for what people think. I read your post where you said "quite upsetting" and took that for a strong emotional response to the issue. I apologize if I got the wrong impression from that.As for Traditional / Conservative, again, sorry if I misread. I found that the arguments you were presenting were the same I often hear from conservatives and traditionalists on these same issues. I don't see conservatism as wholly wrong, it's just not my own nature.Just keep in mind, if you are looking at history as a guide, you are looking at traditionalism which is at the heart of conservative political thought in most cases. JobsI didn't mean to say that you thought they should not have jobs they want, you made it clear they should do as they like. As to complaints... most women who complain about an industry do so on two grounds. 1. That the establishment in the profession are not welcoming to women.2. That more needs to be done to encourage women to engage in a profession.I think the first is a real issue, and the second is nice to have, but is more dependent on women solving the problem for themselves. Women make women's culture for the most part.The hard part about the first, is not all women are the same, so what is welcoming to some is not welcoming to all. I think they key is for male entrenched occupations to try to be aware of when they are being hostile or unwelcoming.BreastsI think the key here is women want the freedom to be sexual or not be sexual and to have reasonable boundaries for that. There are times that a woman wants to be stared at and admired, and there are times they don't. I certainly think if you go bare chested you should expect some attention. I think you should also expect there to be a boundary on it. Staring isn't something you can really control. Touching definitely is, and verbal harassment is somewhere in between.Personally, I think its simply unjust under the law to treat men and women's nipples differently. I doubt that most women will go shirtless even if they could, but they should not be threatened with jail or fines if they do. And if they do, they should expect a bit of staring because its outside the social norm.I also think it would be good for society to get over some of our hangups about nudity. When Janet Jackson's nipple was seen you would think a bomb had gone off. Its just silly.PregnancyPeople complain about traffic, about internet memes, about all kind of things they do voluntarily. Pregnancy is quite literally a pain in the ass. I think its kind of expected it would be worthy of some complaints. Its just human nature to grumble about life's challenges.Anyhow, I think I've about run the gamut for my thoughts on the topic, feel free to take the last word on it and thanks for discussing it with me!
I agree that feminism is more of an undefinable thing. I won't call it a movement
@mani_bharathy Agreed, as it was once a movement, it’s currently getting twisted into either a new movement or just a simple thought process.
I hear the "more rights than men" thing a lot, but usually, it's just whiny man babies who view women having even half the opportunities they did as women "taking over." The kind of dudes who think a classroom where female students speak up more than 33% (but less than 50%) of the time and claim that woman "dominated" the conversation. The men who claim women are "taking over Star Wars" even though not one theatrically released Star Wars film has had the number of lines of dialogue for female characters top 50%. Not one.