3 months ago
Which side makes a better case?
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  • 3 months ago

    @mani_bharathy if some stranger steals your mom’s pursue , which has a bit of money in it.. Or if that stranger drugs your mom and penetrates her for 5-10 minutes in some ditch when she really didn’t want him to .. even if there was no violence..

    Do both of these hypothetical situations upset you equally?

    • 3 months ago

      Or if some random guy penetrates you anally for 5-10 minutes when u really didn’t want it, but you took the thrusts anyway helpless and unable to resist.. is that the same as taking $100 from u?

      What if a video of u being robbed goes online, versus a video of u bending over and taking it up the ass by some dude.. same mental trauma for u?

    • 3 months ago

      @yaz quite descriptive you are...almost poetic haha

    • 3 months ago

      @gigi couldn’t help but remember that scene in American History X

    • 3 months ago

      @yaz Good example. I would be upset more in the latter scenario. But I don't really have a rational reason to do that. It's more of emotional reasons because its my mother.

      I like the second example in which I'm the victim. Now I can think rationally. No emotions.

      "Or if some random guy penetrates you anally for 5-10 minutes when u really didn’t want it, but you took the thrusts anyway helpless and unable to resist.. is that the same as taking $100 from u? "

      It would be very much disgusting to me during that 5-10 minutes. But it's not a big deal. What if a crow shits on my head, its disgusting but I have to manage it anyway. The same way I will try to manage the rape also.
      Side note : I'm not sure if crow shitting is common in US, its very common in India

      With that said I will still be complaining to the police for the coercive action by the rapist. Its not because he raped me, but he forced me to do something which I do not want to do. Even if he forced me to accept 1000 dollars from him, I'm going to give the same complaint of coercive activity. To me the act of coercion is very bad, not rape.

      "What if a video of u being robbed goes online, versus a video of u bending over and taking it up the ass by some dude.. same mental trauma for u?"

      I have two responses.

      1) Recording and releasing the video is not part of rape, it's another bad activity. According to court it will be atleast two different charges (rape, videotaping it, circulating in online). The topic was more concerned to rape only

      2) I would not have any mental trauma regarding both videos going online. If I had gone to a prostitute and the video tape is leaked in the internet probably I will be scared of what people think of me. But in rape case, I did not do anything wrong, so I'm not going to worry.

      PS : Just to be clear, I'm not trying to justify rape or something. And also it's a position I'm not totally sure of but just wanted to discuss. And also as I mentioned in the video that I have really not experienced rape myself or even related/talked to someone who is raped. so I might not be well informed to talk about it

  • 3 months ago

    @carltonturner1108 Nice debating sir. You kept cool on a hot topic, and provided a lot of very thoughtful counters and arguments on this topic.

  • 3 months ago

    Sometimes I think Mani is being purposely controversial and defending concepts he knows are wrong, sort of like Bronson does but less annoying.

    Still, this is just a stupid argument. It’s overwhelmingly wrong, and that can be demonstrated if you just poll people who have been raped about what it did to them and their mental health. So this is an easy con vote.

    • 3 months ago

      @sharkb8 "Sometimes I think Mani is being purposely controversial and defending concepts he knows are wrong, sort of like Bronson does but less annoying. "
      Probably true.

      "Still, this is just a stupid argument. It’s overwhelmingly wrong, and that can be demonstrated if you just poll people who have been raped about what it did to them and their mental health. So this is an easy con vote."

      I understand that there is this mental suffering among rape victims. But my question is is the action of rape really the cause for those mental suffering? My question is something along the lines of "correlation does not always indicate direct causation". I don't see any reason for the victim to mentally suffer as the victim did not do anything wrong

    • 3 months ago

      @sharkb8 @mani_bharathy Mani.. sorry for discussing you here but It's been on my mind so just explain if I'm way off the mark.

      So, in watching a few of Mani's debates and doing one myself, a strong theme is that he places a low value on emotion. We have a debate coming up on the very topic on reason vs emotion.

      So, if you look at the topic and remove emotion from it, his view doesn't seem so crazy. But, removing emotion from something like rape is kind of beside the point. It is really essential to the subject.

      I think it comes only a little from being provocative, and partly from someone exploring their own lack of empathy for strong emotional displays and reactions. Now, if that is due to a low state of his own emotional feelings, or an inability to connect to others, I don't know.

      Personally, I've always felt a bit less personally affected by emotion than what I observe in other people. I just don't have the emotional range and sustain most other people do. Ironically, because of that, I think I can sympathize a bit more with what Mani's line of thinking here is. Not that I agree, but I can see where he is coming from. Take all the feeling out of the situation, and the sexual act in rape becomes much more palatable.

      I thought Con did a nice job pointing out that STDs and Pregancy are very substantial physical outcomes that can result from pregnancy.

    • 3 months ago

      @sigfried "so just explain if I'm way off the mark"
      You are on the mark :thumbsup:

      "So, in watching a few of Mani's debates and doing one myself, a strong theme is that he places a low value on emotion."
      So true.

      "I think it comes only a little from being provocative, and partly from someone exploring their own lack of empathy for strong emotional displays and reactions."
      I agree.

      "Now, if that is due to a low state of his own emotional feelings, or an inability to connect to others, I don't know."
      I'm not sure if I understood this


      "I thought Con did a nice job pointing out that STDs and Pregancy are very substantial physical outcomes that can result from pregnancy."

      I would say that those (STDs, pregnancy etc) are not the necessary properties of rape. Say the rapist shows his medical certificate (which says the person has no STDs and he has done vasectomy) to the girl before doing rape. Still its rape. So I would not consider STDs and pregnancies are good points to say that rape is bad

    • 3 months ago

      Without emotions, what is life?

    • 3 months ago

      @sharkb8 Or I think perhaps more to the point, without emotions, why is life?

      Emotions are at the heart of motivations and motivations are what drives us to act. Though I do take a broad view of what an emotion is. I suppose there may be motivations that are not exactly what we'd normally think of as emotions. But emotions seem to play a strong part in any misalignment between our motivations and our circumstance.

      The way I see it, emotion (and lest say instinct) guide our objectives. Reason is used to help us achieve them.

    • 3 months ago

      @sigfried yeah that’s a good answer. I’m very much motivated by logic rather than emotions, but at the same time, life wouldn’t be worth living if I didn’t experience positive growth and satisfaction. It’s emotion that gives life value.

      When making a truth claim, it’s often good to remove emotions from the consideration so that you’ll have the most rational answer, but when making a truth claim about the human condition, removing emotions means you aren’t even making a truth claim about humanity, because the human condition is necessarily intertwined with emotion.

      So it completely misses the point to try to say that rape isn’t that bad (if you remove the emotional devastation caused to the victim). The emotional positive or negative IS the question at hand, because that’s how one measures how positive or negative an act is toward fellow human beings. It’s actually irrational to try to answer this question without factoring in the emotional suffering.