7 days ago
Which side makes a better case?
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  • 7 days ago

    Thanks @duncan_king for a cwu good discussion. I enjoyed it. Good discussion, no arguing h :)

  • 7 days ago

    Clarifying some facts (not necessary related to the argument, but just for educational purposes).

    The list of supposed "popes"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes#1st_century

    Books mentioned in the bible that are not included in the bible

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

    • 7 days ago

      Finding of the council of Rome related to the canon:

      "Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books, Paralipomenon [i.e. Chronicles] two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book, likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus [i.e. Sirach] one book.

      Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book, with Ginoth, that is, with his Lamentations, Ezechiel one book, Daniel one book, Osee one book, Amos one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books [i.e. Ezra & Nehemiah], Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books.

      Likewise the order of the writings of the New and Eternal Testament, which only the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke one book, according to John one book.

      The Epistles of Paul the Apostle in number fourteen. To the Romans one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians two, to the Galatians one, to the Philippians one, to the Colossians one, to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one.

      Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles one book. Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealut, the Apostle one epistle."

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Rome

      • 7 days ago

        An important point, I should have mentioned: Mat 16:19

        "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.”

        Whether or not Yeshua meant "you are the rock" or "the fact that I am the son of god is the rock," nevertheless, he specifies that Peter has the "keys" to bind and loose; or to create doctrines that can be thus manifested through a church created by Peter. So the interpretation is not soley dependant upon "the Rock" but moreso on "the keys."

        • 7 days ago

          @duncan_king Jesus said that The fact that Jesus is "The Christ, the Son of the Living God" was the Rock He referred to, not a person and that the keys were not given to Peter but to those who believe the said statement revealed to Peter.

        • 7 days ago

          @nellyj_misesian he said to Peter, "I will give you the keys," no? I'll Grant you the rock could be interpreted the way you say, but to say "you" means any believer in this situation is a real stretch.

      • 7 days ago

        The Books of the Bible
        But where did we even get the books of the Bible in the first place? Jews and early Christians believed these books to be the result of God guiding the human authors and editors. A fundamental difference between the Bible and the sacred literature of most other major religions is the claim that the Bible was a cooperative creation between God and multiple human authors.

        However, it’s a fair question to ask how human councils in the early church could authoritatively decide which books belong in the Bible. The biblical canon is the recognized and official list of Scriptures believed to be the product of divine revelation. A scholarly consensus is that the current twenty-seven books of the New Testament were already in use by the Christian Church as early as 150 CE.

        While an official decision regarding the canon came later, the majority of churches operated with a relatively fixed canon from the second century CE onward
        https://www.exploregod.com/history-of-the-bible

        • 6 days ago

          @nellyj_misesian The idea that 27 books are taught in churches is not in itself the idea of "the bible." The idea of the bible includes the notion that teachings of texts outside the canon should be dismissed. That idea, along with the canon itself, is not in the bible.

          Whatever you think the basis is that reveals said texts are inspired, those reasons are extrabiblical reasons and are thus a contradiction.

      • 2 days ago

        Con doesn't know anything about what Catholic's actually believe. He just states a bunch of half truths and straw men about Catholic beliefs. That being said, I don't think either side was in this for the win, and they each wind up basically agreeing, so I'm voting draw.