Some good points but it's a pity the challenger immediately jumped to the defence of Israel and the debate seemed to go off onto this tangent. And who decided calling out duel loyalty "is" an antisemetic trope? Is that to shut people up? I disagree that it "is" and don't need to be lectured about that, thank you. I think the point was missed, i.e. that the attacks on "the Four" are ridiculous as they are citizens of the USA. Every citizen has the right to free speech and to criticize its government (didn't Trump criticize the Obama Government, and was he told to "leave"? Should he have "gone back" to his own country, i.e Scotland or Germany?) Trumps comments were clearly racist and the rest of the world knows it. He's making the USA a laughing stock. Always makes me laugh though, hearing Israel defended in such ridiculous ways, like "yeah, I know it's an apartheid state and was created by terrorism and has ethnically cleansed most of the indigenous population and keeps the rest in a state of utter poverty and imprisonment and regularly kills them and their children and breaks pretty much every rule of International Law (especially the one that says "The aquasition of territory through military conquest is no longer admissable"), but, but..muslim countries don't treat gays nicely like we do? So what? it's supposed to be a Western style democracy so BIG EFFING DEAL!.Does Israel give gay Arabs/Palestinians the same rights as gay Jews?!!
@bookman I really should have mentioned that the WSJ article (Thelma and Louise drive off slippery slope or something) starts by suggesting that Americans shouldn’t have a 1st Amendment right to criticize Israel by staying they’re lucky Trump and Nutandyahoo allow them to visit.
@julian yes, would have helped I guess. It's funny, is it not, that Trump kind of equated Omar's "hatred" of Israel to her "hatred" of the USA. Well, I thought Israel was a DIFFERENT country to the USA. That he conflates the two speaks volumes...
@bookman haha. Yes! Which also reminds me of my failure to mention Somilia’s govt is unstable because of, you guessed it, the USA!
@bookman https://youtu.be/BXVzPfTaWR4 Even David Packman will cop to the fact that a small yet VERY vocal and reactive contingent of the left goes way too far in regards to defending the 'four' and unfairly criticizing Israel. It's not antisemitic to criticize Israel's policies, it's antisemitic to argue against their right to self determination as a nation and more importantly it's antisemitic when you spend the large majority of your energies and speech criticizing Israel when there are countless other countries committing far more egregious human rights issues that you stay relatively silent on. That's what happening with the UN and that's what's happening with a small, however aggressive, contingent of the left.
@ely nonsense. That is just your opinion and I don't buy it. So, what is it to argue against Palestinian self-determination? Anti-Arab (or antisemetic, as they too are semites). There are hundreds of ethnic groups who don't get to have self-determination. What makes Jews so special? Neither is the fact that I focus on Israel antisemetic, I choose Israel, partly because my own country, the UK, is responsible. Sure I'll call other countries out but i'm not going to consider myself antisemitic just because I spend 10 hours a week campaigning against the apartheid state of Israel and ten minutes on Saudi! And what you say about the UN is nonsense too. there are resolutions passed all the time against other states. All you need to do is read about it. And I am NOT on the Left!
@ely what do you consider antisemitic and can you give some examples of people who are anti Semitic? For example do you consider the bdsm move anti Semitic? Who, from the west, has challenged the right of Israel to exist? As far as I can tell people challenge this only if it hinders other peoples human rights. I.e. if my right to self determination means that another nation gets surprised then maybe it’s ok to challenge, no? Secondly, do you believe that people shouldn’t fight for the rights of Palestinian people b cause there are other nations that might suffer as well? So it’s all or nothing? So for example because there are people dying from hunger in Africa we shouldn’t care about the people dying from opioids in the US?I am not even going to comment on the left labelling...
@gigi The BDS movement is anti-Semitic because it punishes an entire country's industries as opposed to critiquing individual policies of the Israeli government. As far as the people criticizing Israel it seems to be for the most part very one-sided. There's virtually no mention of Hamas. There's virtually no mention of the amount of money Israel's given the Palestinians that Hamas used to build tunnels to transport weapons. Most importantly BDS singles out Israel as the biggest HR violator when there is much worse human rights abuses happening across the globe to Christians , Yazidis, and Muslims (in China) etc.Israel's government especially Netanyahu isn't blameless but the amount of attention being focused on Israel further underscores the bigotry of low expectations towards Hamas, Iran and other enemies of Israel and the Jewish people.
@gigi good logical points Gigi.
@ely That again is just your opinion ely, but I'm afraid to say, devoid of logic. The BDS movement was created by Palestinians themselves and it is everyone's legal right to boycot whomever they choose. I do not agree with Hamas' policies but I do defend their legal right (which they have under International Law) to forcefully resist occupation and the attacks on them by Israel. Just as the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto did in 1943. Regarding the "blaming the Netanyahu government" I actually think it's time to start blaming the people (not ALL of course but the majority certainly); Israel is a Democracy (as we are continually told) and when the population votes into power an evil racist mass-murderer, not once, not twice, but FIVE times then I think that says a lot. Even Adolf Hitler was voted into power (and that by a very slim margin) only once. After that the German People could not vote...
@ely So do you consider all boycotts wrong because the apply to an individual/ whole company/ government rather than to the specific policies/ actions? As far as I know, boycotting is a common and quite effective way of protesting and its acceptable for any other purpose but somehow if it applies to Israel then it’s considered anti-Semitic..Even last week we saw an example of people dropping out of the businesses of a certain individual because he was fundraising for Trump. What alternative ways of protesting you would suggest for the people recognising violations of human rights and international law, illegal settlements etc?The it’s the next question..Have you heard of the terms “one’s man terorrist is another man’s freedom fighter”? Hamas is messing everything up, no question but it’s also a very convenient excuse to justify Israel’s atrocities. Victimising Israel is a standard tactic to justify their actions, which is so surprising coming from a nation that has suffered somuch and of course they deserve to have a land. Just not at the expense of other people.I don’t get your argument that Israel is not the worst in the world (of course its not) and that’s why we shouldn’t criticise it? Again do you only fight for one cause in your life? Only if it’s the number one issue? Finally you mentioned bigotry.. Do you think that myself (a random person from Greece), bookman (a guy from the UK), Julian (an American), The increasing number of Jewish Americans (the young generation that finally sees the injustices and the indoctrination during their free trips to Israel) are bigots? If yes, what do we have to gain? Why would we expose ourselves against one of the most powerful nations in the world and in favour of a tiny Arabic nation that we have nothing in common with?
@bookman Hiiii! We are on London, ping us if you happen to visit!!
@gigi agh! stuck in my bookshop in the provinces :-( have a great stay Gigi, and thanks for your clear logical points (above).
@bookman we actually live in London now at least till the end of the year :-) or maybe we can visit you! Where are you based again?