Which side makes a better case?
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  • 15 days ago

    What I should have pointed out (I tend to think more clearly when I am smoking) is that you want a men's rights movement run by feminists, but not called a "mens rights movement." That's really not the stated claim. So your only objection is really in calling it a "mens rights movement." Thus in reality, you are doing the very thing I charge feminism as being guilty of. Feminism is an ideology that does not allow for the idea of there being an issue with men's rights because it goes against the patriarchy theory narrative. Essentially, the fear (when we say something is "unnecessary" we imply there is a cost) with calling a movement a "mens rights movement" is the disruption of the patriarchy theory narrative.

    • 15 days ago

      @duncan_king no I had two arguments though. One of them was that there’s a more effective way to deal with both men’s issues and women’s issues at once.

      The other was that the movement itself is unnecessary, because the time that is being spent on a men’s rights campaign detracts from time that could be spent on where the problem is bigger, women’s issues. That’s why I spent time talking about issues women face and how they’re bigger than men’s issues. Another part of this argument I would have gone into if there had been more focus on it is that men’s rights forums and activists tend to be utterly disgusting in their misogyny, hostility, anger, rape supportive actions, and overall determination to break down any gains we are making in women’s issues. If that is the cost for men’s rights activism, it’s preferable not to have that movement in the first place.

    • 15 days ago

      @sharkb8 Exactly. Feminism presupposes that women's issues are greater, so thus it can't solve men's issues. Your own words contradict themselves.

      "Feminism can solve mens issues"
      "I am a feminist and thus, I do not think mens issues are important"

      ^clearly you see the contradiction.

      Unlike "feminism," "MRA" is not an ideology. It is an umbrella term for various activists with all sorts of beliefs. This is evident in MRA groups if you pay much attention because MRAs argue all the time. They only agree about the specific MRA issues being addressed by the movement. Many of these people are traditionalists who think men's lives were perfect until feminism came along. That is no less ridiculous than feminism, but regardless, "MRA" is not an ideology. So it doesn't matter.

    • 15 days ago

      @duncan_king But even if men's issues were greater than women's, the best solution to them is to break down the barriers that cause problems to men. It's interesting to note that men have not gotten worse in virtually any category over the last 50 years. Male standardized test scores/graduation rates/GPA's haven't dropped, they've stayed the same. Women have improved (Because feminism works, so women are finally getting the opportunity they've always deserved). Men are starting to be able to be stay at home Dad's if they wish. Judgment over males getting a psychologist or crying is being reduced. As a result (amidst many other reasons) the crime rate has been falling, which means males are improving.

      Feminism takes note of the rather obvious fact that males commit crime at a ridiculously disproportionate rate to women. But feminism recognizes that the root cause of this is the gender roles we've forced men and women into. By breaking down those roles, we root out the crime that males have inflicted upon women, and we improve the lives of the males themselves.

    • 14 days ago

      @sharkb8 Feminsim can't help because by claiming all gender issues are caused by a patriarchy, nobody wants to help men or thinks that by helping them, they are aiding this "patriarchy."

      A lot of the people I have linked the video to are scoffing at your belief that feminists have aided in stopping biases against men. In most situations they have aided them.

      "break down the barriers which cause problems for men" is a men's rights movement. You just don't want it called that and you want it run by a group who believes in patriarchy theory and doesn't consider any male problems a big deal. Essentially your claim boils down to the idea that men shouldn't be helped (you want feminism to address the issue, but then neglect them because the issues are not important).

      Besides this, feminists have promoted exhaustively the idea that men are sexual deviants. It's a very bigoted ideology and you should be ashamed of yourself for defending it.

    • 14 days ago

      @duncan_king lol you realize I could show this video to people I know and they’d scoff at your assertion that men face more issues than women. Don’t let your community bias cloud your reason.

      I never advocated saying that there is a patriarchal overarching conspiracy against men. If you had actually paid attention to my points we might have had a better debate.